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foreign

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[Applause]

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foreign

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thank you

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hey everyone from the Great American

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Northwest hope you all good evening good

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morning good afternoon wherever you may

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be Across the Nation around the world my

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name is Leah Prime and this is the

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invisible night school we are back after

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um well after a Hiatus for me I know the

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gentleman here were happily filling in

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the hot seat hosting some great

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conversations

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um but for anyone just joining us we are

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the invisible night school we're a small

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Consortium of Lee researchers and

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Scholars pursuing the study and

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exploration of ufology high strangeness

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and the phenomena ins is not a monolith

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we represent varied ideas backgrounds

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disciplines experiences and seek to

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engage in good faith conversation with

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other curious minds

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um this evening uh we're going to be

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discussing the subject of disclosure we

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don't have a guest slated for tonight

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instead it's going to be two of my

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lovely co-hosts we have the inhibitable

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Campbell Moreira joining us Campbell and

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then of course our resident dubious

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Layman Nick good to have you hey how's

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hi Nick

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you are looking every bit the UFO

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researcher uh in your Hawaiian shirt

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vaguely disheveled the cat on your lap

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computer behind you I know the computer

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I've got a little uh CRT back there the

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VCR hooked up too

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this is kind of like incredible a

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low-tech room right here yes Simon fly

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bearing their lead right here uh yes

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it's what is it it's bait there's no

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disclosure right sure well it depends on

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what you mean like disclosure of what

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and uh that actually like just kind of

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wanna how I want to start it off yes I

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don't want to say

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because because I wanted to kind of

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touch on where we're all at like what

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what all our takes are on UFOs and

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ufology and eventually disclosure to but

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I don't want to say what are UFOs

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because that's kind of like saying in my

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opinion where I lost socks it's a bit of

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a similar question

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but that kind of brings me to it and um

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I want to talk about what ufology is to

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each of you and to me and

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kind of more interestingly why is

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ufology why is there a ufology right so

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I'm going to kick that off so what and

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why is ufology Campbell

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yeah well ufology

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uh coming off the top of my head here

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it's the study of UFOs uh as a subject

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if we look at the most recent article by

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Mick West in what is that paper the New

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York Post I believe he published yeah

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ufology as the study of UFOs as

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extraterrestrial objects or craft or

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whatever

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um I thought that was interesting it

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sort of refines it uh also um a lot of

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people who study UFOs would be upset

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with that because it leaves out the

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humans that are interdimensional

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visiting us and the time traveling

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humans you know it's not just

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extraterrestrials here right sure

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um so uh but you know generally speaking

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I think ufology is like the study of

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this distinct category of object kind of

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in line with what Mick was saying like

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that people have been reporting seeing

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for decades and decades now

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um yeah what about you Leah what do you

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think of you know um oh man there's so

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much I could say uh I'm always reminded

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of um

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Noam Chomsky talking about the frizz

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support our troops and this idea that

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that phrase itself well no I'm gonna get

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there Nick oh no I'm right calm down

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everyone's everyone loves your shirt man

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yeah people are yeah you were you were

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Dressed to Kill for the part

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um but like I I

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no people are making fun of you they

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love you

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um

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yeah

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um anyway I always think of that Noam

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Chomsky uh quote about basically how

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this phrase support our troops

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um is basically this completely

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meaningless useless phrase that can be

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contorted and applied to basically

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anyone of any ideology any place because

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who doesn't support the troops right

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um and I say this because I think when

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we fall into discussing like what

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exactly defines ufology we wind up with

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these either these extremely literal

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definitions that completely fail to

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account for the complexity and nuance

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and

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um sort of like uh qualitative elements

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or subjective elements of the subject

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um and is really

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um

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these extremely uh literal definitions

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basically failed to account for the

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subject and any appreciable way in my

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opinion

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um but I also think exactly Campbell

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said

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um when we talk about this subject

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um there are definitely basically niches

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and sub niches within the entire subject

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very nice I have a Seltzer

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um but um

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niches and sub niches within this

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subject that you know in a very general

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broad sense Fallen to the subject of

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ufology but could very just as much be

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considered psychedelia meditation

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um spiritual emergence you know these

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variety of human experiences that don't

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fall strictly into the nuts and bolts or

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material phenomena that we hear people

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talk about

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um you know it and I think

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um

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it also reminds me of uh seeing people

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say things like UFOs are real right like

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this is a completely meaningless and

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vacuous statement because of course

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there are literal UFOs there are things

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we see that people see that cannot

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literally be identified

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um but what does that actually mean

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right like what does this notion of uas

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UFOs are real what does this actually

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imply from an ontological and a a

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epistemological perspective

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um and of course that necessitates us to

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even have some shared consensus

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understanding of what UFOs even are

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um right so pretty nice are they just

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flying saucers Nick

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pre-1947 I mean like they're all history

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we've been seeing things in the sky that

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we can't recognize you know

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airships the ghost rockets in 1946 uh

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Foo Fighters during the war but they

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were never I mean [\h__\h] even stuff

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documented uh over Nuremberg in the 16th

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century there's all sorts of things but

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these were all kind of collected into a

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general unknown

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um kind of 40 Anna right actually it was

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the audience who were like the

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proto-u-fologists not the freudians

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important distinction but then after

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1947 or yeah 1947 it kind of was

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re-categorized as its own thing although

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I can't point to a specific like

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characteristic or trait that's a

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criteria to become a UFO uh opposed to

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like we were talking to Michael

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Huntington uh and I asked him like what

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what's the distinction between a spook

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light and a UFO

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and I wonder I wonder why you guys think

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that uh

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not what about what was it about 1947

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that kind of

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re-categorized it and kind of

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essentially created what we understand

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as you have ufology now

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uh I just want to address a question

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from one of the viewers right now if he

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asks I've heard that word 14 before but

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what's it mean it's basically uh an

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adjective reference to Charles Fort uh

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who wrote the book of the Damned and he

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studied a lot of the sort of strange

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paranormal

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Etc totally worth checking out

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um you can get his books on Amazon for

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super super inexpensive but I sort of

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think of him as the pioneer of modern

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paranormal studies or weird studies

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um everything from telekinesis

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Clairvoyance clairaudience

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mediumship

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activity yeah reigning frogs any of this

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kind of stuff

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um totally worth checking out if you

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were like kind of in a nutshell what he

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thought is he thought the v's like

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anomalies or mysteries of Science and

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stuff like that all kind of came from

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uh play it's where I told you your ring

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was from and I can't remember it's the

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super something C it was it's

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essentially Super sargasso C yes that

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swallowed up my engagement ring yeah so

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um this concept is something that we saw

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when we talked way back in like episode

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four about ghosts it's essentially a

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reinterpretation of The Ether which is

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actually a medieval idea so this idea

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that we now kind of um I see people talk

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about Consciousness in the same way but

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also the extra dimensional hypothesis

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are all kind of this same recycled

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concept from medieval times of The Ether

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this kind of like parallel other space

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like a

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they come in in and out of and it's

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interesting that that

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predated the eth essentially I I say

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that uh some of uh the 40s under four

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kind of proposed the ultra dimensional

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hypothesis too but it seems to

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it's so murky around them because you

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had people like Mead Lane who were doing

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the channeling thing which also Echoes

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um

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spiritualism that we talked about before

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but then you had um what's his name uh

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Ray Palmer who was writing America or

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Amazing Stories basically writing out

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the UFO narrative that exists today

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essentially The X-Files plotline that

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these are craft with extraterrestrials

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and the government knows about it and

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deciding knowledge I mean he was writing

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this back in 1946 so prior to

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1947 but what like

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what it what is it I I asked this a

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minute ago what what was it about that

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year or was it even the Kenneth Arnold

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citing that kind of re-categorized this

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like what do you think

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um

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well wait can I can I I just want to

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sidecar on something you brought up

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about this idea of the emergence in the

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medieval period of this like like

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um

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other world or other reality right this

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is very much so like when we look at uh

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it's sort of and I'm just gonna go a

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little bit off the cuff here but it sort

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of reminds me about discussions of low

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versus high christology right when you

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read the really early

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um gospels about Christ they're very

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like nuts and bolts there's nothing but

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a physical or woo-woo about them they're

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just like dude got now to a cross died

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after three days

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um that was kind of it when you read

280
00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:14,700
like some of the later gospels that's

281
00:12:18,170 --> 00:12:16,140
when you start seeing a lot more of this

282
00:12:20,269 --> 00:12:18,180
sort of metaphysical or mysterious or

283
00:12:22,190 --> 00:12:20,279
numinous quality associated with the

284
00:12:23,569 --> 00:12:22,200
death and resurrection of Christ and

285
00:12:25,310 --> 00:12:23,579
also the sort of symbolism that's

286
00:12:27,470 --> 00:12:25,320
associated with this right this is when

287
00:12:28,430 --> 00:12:27,480
like the story of like the dove comes

288
00:12:29,090 --> 00:12:28,440
out

289
00:12:34,250 --> 00:12:29,100
um

290
00:12:36,290 --> 00:12:34,260
particularly

291
00:12:37,610 --> 00:12:36,300
um the medieval Christian experience was

292
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:37,620
imbued with a lot of these sort of

293
00:12:42,829 --> 00:12:39,839
mystical preoccupations

294
00:12:45,889 --> 00:12:42,839
um and then also uh you see this show up

295
00:12:47,629 --> 00:12:45,899
in a lot of uh like medieval art and in

296
00:12:49,610 --> 00:12:47,639
the Roman Catholic Church which was sort

297
00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:49,620
of the overarching

298
00:12:54,110 --> 00:12:52,620
um uh body

299
00:12:57,769 --> 00:12:54,120
um working

300
00:12:59,329 --> 00:12:57,779
um on defining uh Christianity

301
00:13:01,370 --> 00:12:59,339
um and we see you know we see there's

302
00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:01,380
all these different um artifacts that

303
00:13:06,430 --> 00:13:03,200
are supposedly imbued with this sort of

304
00:13:08,810 --> 00:13:06,440
metaphysical or uh

305
00:13:11,150 --> 00:13:08,820
divine power just by virtue of being

306
00:13:13,069 --> 00:13:11,160
around Christ and this I think

307
00:13:14,990 --> 00:13:13,079
um both from a theological perspective

308
00:13:16,490 --> 00:13:15,000
an Institutional perspective like within

309
00:13:19,250 --> 00:13:16,500
the realm of the Catholic Church itself

310
00:13:20,990 --> 00:13:19,260
but then also um for the followers of

311
00:13:22,850 --> 00:13:21,000
the church the laity

312
00:13:24,410 --> 00:13:22,860
um this idea of like you know the Spear

313
00:13:26,509 --> 00:13:24,420
of Destiny quote unquote the spirit that

314
00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:26,519
was used to pierce Christ's side the

315
00:13:30,290 --> 00:13:28,320
Shroud of Turin

316
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:30,300
um the the different relics either

317
00:13:34,850 --> 00:13:32,399
Christ relics like pieces of the Cross

318
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:34,860
or Saints relics you know like bones and

319
00:13:38,569 --> 00:13:37,440
hearts and [\h__\h] like that like this very

320
00:13:41,090 --> 00:13:38,579
much introduced into popular

321
00:13:42,889 --> 00:13:41,100
Consciousness this idea that there is

322
00:13:44,389 --> 00:13:42,899
this sort of other world that even if we

323
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:44,399
can't physically engage with it and

324
00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:46,320
interact with it what we can do is we

325
00:13:49,430 --> 00:13:48,180
can use this sort of divine artifacts

326
00:13:52,430 --> 00:13:49,440
again through the Catholic Church

327
00:13:54,110 --> 00:13:52,440
obviously like indigenous and Witchcraft

328
00:13:56,750 --> 00:13:54,120
and stuff are also doing this kind of

329
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:56,760
thing much more surreptitiously but you

330
00:14:01,970 --> 00:13:58,560
can use these artifacts as basically

331
00:14:04,430 --> 00:14:01,980
prisms or gateways into encountering or

332
00:14:06,590 --> 00:14:04,440
understanding or peering into the Divine

333
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:06,600
or the sort of alternate reality that

334
00:14:09,230 --> 00:14:08,399
exists and I feel like when we think

335
00:14:11,449 --> 00:14:09,240
about

336
00:14:13,370 --> 00:14:11,459
um what sort of primed the Western

337
00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:13,380
modern mind for this kind of thinking

338
00:14:17,389 --> 00:14:15,660
like we have the medieval period And I

339
00:14:18,769 --> 00:14:17,399
mean even we have like Wagner and

340
00:14:20,569 --> 00:14:18,779
parsifal in the ring and stuff like

341
00:14:22,370 --> 00:14:20,579
parsifal is all about this stuff and

342
00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:22,380
that was like one of the main you know

343
00:14:25,910 --> 00:14:23,880
one of the main cultural icons at the

344
00:14:27,530 --> 00:14:25,920
end of the 19th century bringing these

345
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:27,540
ideas into common kind of Consciousness

346
00:14:32,030 --> 00:14:30,240
along with like romantic nationalism and

347
00:14:34,009 --> 00:14:32,040
things like that but anyway that's

348
00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:34,019
that's what I was thinking of when we

349
00:14:39,650 --> 00:14:36,420
think about how sort of the the common

350
00:14:41,569 --> 00:14:39,660
mind becomes primed to accept and engage

351
00:14:43,490 --> 00:14:41,579
with these ideas of non-physical reality

352
00:14:46,370 --> 00:14:43,500
being around us

353
00:14:47,870 --> 00:14:46,380
um and occasionally also affecting our

354
00:14:49,970 --> 00:14:47,880
physical realities right this is why

355
00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:49,980
people pray to relics or pray for

356
00:14:55,790 --> 00:14:51,839
intercession of the Saints to do things

357
00:14:58,370 --> 00:14:55,800
in our physical reality on our behalves

358
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:58,380
and I think it's worth noting too like

359
00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:01,199
the idea of The Ether that the ethereum

360
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:05,519
it's the like uh the domain of light of

361
00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:08,160
goodness from the biblical belief system

362
00:15:14,090 --> 00:15:10,500
and uh these beings from the ethereum

363
00:15:16,009 --> 00:15:14,100
are luminous beings uh light is good

364
00:15:19,129 --> 00:15:16,019
they are pure goodness they're pure

365
00:15:20,509 --> 00:15:19,139
light people uh were committing to these

366
00:15:22,569 --> 00:15:20,519
things because they were seeing things

367
00:15:26,569 --> 00:15:22,579
that they couldn't understand or explain

368
00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:26,579
uh seeing meteors coming down um That's

369
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:29,519
a classic example you see a group of

370
00:15:34,730 --> 00:15:31,920
meteors a slow falling because they're

371
00:15:36,769 --> 00:15:34,740
coming out at a steep angle you wouldn't

372
00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:36,779
know what that was uh they would look

373
00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:38,760
potentially like beings you know if if

374
00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:40,380
you've been told that there are angels

375
00:15:44,449 --> 00:15:41,880
and they're from the ethereum they're

376
00:15:45,949 --> 00:15:44,459
pure luminosity and perhaps that's the

377
00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:45,959
origin of that description right so

378
00:15:49,970 --> 00:15:47,820
these things emerge and then you want a

379
00:15:53,170 --> 00:15:49,980
description of it and uh you know then

380
00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:53,180
you appeal to your

381
00:15:58,490 --> 00:15:56,040
standards of uh reference from your

382
00:16:01,610 --> 00:15:58,500
community right uh so so there is

383
00:16:04,730 --> 00:16:01,620
sometimes a foundation to these uh these

384
00:16:07,129 --> 00:16:04,740
things as well maybe maybe the criteria

385
00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:07,139
that qualifies ufology moving forward

386
00:16:11,689 --> 00:16:09,480
from fortiennas because

387
00:16:13,370 --> 00:16:11,699
unlike other things that you can that

388
00:16:16,490 --> 00:16:13,380
you don't have a good look at you can go

389
00:16:18,170 --> 00:16:16,500
up and examine but UFO sightings are by

390
00:16:21,710 --> 00:16:18,180
definition Out Of Reach and fleeting

391
00:16:23,870 --> 00:16:21,720
kind of so it perpetuates the mystery uh

392
00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:23,880
moving like to quickly answer the

393
00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:26,100
question I put out to you about 1947 I

394
00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:28,079
think it's all in The Branding I think

395
00:16:31,389 --> 00:16:29,279
the um

396
00:16:34,129 --> 00:16:31,399
the mistaking

397
00:16:35,949 --> 00:16:34,139
press report calling them flying saucers

398
00:16:38,870 --> 00:16:35,959
is really what kind of

399
00:16:41,689 --> 00:16:38,880
beta uh it's a meme yeah it's a meme

400
00:16:44,749 --> 00:16:41,699
it's a meme it was a it was it's like a

401
00:16:48,170 --> 00:16:44,759
jingle or a brand to put it all under

402
00:16:50,030 --> 00:16:48,180
and I think that that is why 1947 is an

403
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:50,040
important date and kind of what spawned

404
00:16:55,009 --> 00:16:52,980
what we do now to Circle back but what

405
00:16:57,470 --> 00:16:55,019
were you saying Campbell yes

406
00:17:01,310 --> 00:16:57,480
uh just about uh the there are

407
00:17:04,429 --> 00:17:01,320
observations that produce uh these

408
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:04,439
stories and just another form of

409
00:17:07,850 --> 00:17:06,000
observation from the Middle Ages would

410
00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:07,860
be something that Jacques valet who is

411
00:17:10,730 --> 00:17:09,360
you know a famous ufologist actually

412
00:17:13,270 --> 00:17:10,740
references in one of his most famous

413
00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:13,280
book titles uh passport to Magonia

414
00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:17,220
begonias the other realm where the fairy

415
00:17:20,449 --> 00:17:18,900
folk take you when you pass out or

416
00:17:22,429 --> 00:17:20,459
whatever it is

417
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:22,439
um and then it's also this idea of the

418
00:17:27,470 --> 00:17:25,439
castles in the sky and that sounds like

419
00:17:29,390 --> 00:17:27,480
an absurd concept that a cast will be in

420
00:17:32,090 --> 00:17:29,400
the sky but we've played the videos of

421
00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:32,100
uh the natural uh atmospheric effect

422
00:17:37,549 --> 00:17:35,520
fata Morgana it's uh

423
00:17:41,390 --> 00:17:37,559
an atmospheric effect that causes light

424
00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:41,400
waves to uh move at a trajectory that

425
00:17:45,289 --> 00:17:43,140
brings them across the Horizon and then

426
00:17:48,049 --> 00:17:45,299
it makes distant objects appear to be

427
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:48,059
floating and you can produce very

428
00:17:51,409 --> 00:17:49,679
interesting effects that way the image

429
00:17:53,690 --> 00:17:51,419
sometimes gets stacked up in a column

430
00:17:55,850 --> 00:17:53,700
and it can look like a castle in the sky

431
00:17:57,529 --> 00:17:55,860
and so there's a there's a middle ground

432
00:17:58,669 --> 00:17:57,539
there where people are seeing these very

433
00:18:00,350 --> 00:17:58,679
strange things that they can't explain

434
00:18:01,789 --> 00:18:00,360
but then there's folklore about what

435
00:18:03,230 --> 00:18:01,799
they actually you know think that they

436
00:18:05,090 --> 00:18:03,240
are and then there's a consensus that's

437
00:18:06,650 --> 00:18:05,100
built from you know the origin of people

438
00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:06,660
actually seeing something very unusual

439
00:18:09,230 --> 00:18:07,860
and then the larger group of people

440
00:18:10,610 --> 00:18:09,240
believing them who they have close

441
00:18:12,590 --> 00:18:10,620
personal relationships and expands

442
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:12,600
expands and then there comes a certain

443
00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:14,160
point when you actually have the

444
00:18:19,549 --> 00:18:16,799
capacity through a variety of mechanisms

445
00:18:21,669 --> 00:18:19,559
to investigate and verify what exactly

446
00:18:24,289 --> 00:18:21,679
that is that's occurring

447
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:24,299
and that's sort of a transformational

448
00:18:30,890 --> 00:18:28,140
thing in the case of 47 nick uh is there

449
00:18:32,450 --> 00:18:30,900
is there a particular pivot other than

450
00:18:34,510 --> 00:18:32,460
just Kenneth Arnold that you're thinking

451
00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:34,520
of specifically that makes it so

452
00:18:38,390 --> 00:18:36,900
defining as a year

453
00:18:40,909 --> 00:18:38,400
well

454
00:18:43,610 --> 00:18:40,919
um what was it it was June 24th

455
00:18:46,669 --> 00:18:43,620
um he saw nine objects that he described

456
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:46,679
as uh skipping like saucers I believe he

457
00:18:51,529 --> 00:18:49,200
sits there around in front with a

458
00:18:54,590 --> 00:18:51,539
convex triangle on the back they were

459
00:18:58,190 --> 00:18:54,600
not circular they were not discs um

460
00:19:00,350 --> 00:18:58,200
but he was a uh

461
00:19:02,529 --> 00:19:00,360
what everyone would even still call a

462
00:19:06,169 --> 00:19:02,539
reliable witness you know he's a

463
00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:06,179
upstanding citizen I think he is uh I

464
00:19:09,770 --> 00:19:08,280
think he was former military was he I I

465
00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:09,780
couldn't tell you

466
00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:11,820
um bro I

467
00:19:16,490 --> 00:19:14,400
it's hard to say it maybe it was just

468
00:19:18,470 --> 00:19:16,500
that right time

469
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:18,480
um maybe it's one of the maybe it was a

470
00:19:22,250 --> 00:19:20,880
summer fad the fake callback uh summer

471
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:22,260
silliness

472
00:19:28,610 --> 00:19:25,679
but immediately after that you had

473
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:28,620
an enormous wave of people seeing discs

474
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,480
not only disks but spinning discs

475
00:19:34,669 --> 00:19:32,640
usually which is kind of you would

476
00:19:36,169 --> 00:19:34,679
naturally kind of come to the conclusion

477
00:19:39,049 --> 00:19:36,179
that they would just because they are

478
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:39,059
around but uh

479
00:19:43,310 --> 00:19:41,039
I don't know it's interesting one of one

480
00:19:45,650 --> 00:19:43,320
of the the I think it was within a week

481
00:19:47,450 --> 00:19:45,660
there was a case uh the Maury island

482
00:19:48,890 --> 00:19:47,460
case which turned out to be a hoax I

483
00:19:51,049 --> 00:19:48,900
believe that he got himself involved

484
00:19:53,390 --> 00:19:51,059
with and uh I think one of the people

485
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,400
involved in that case was also um

486
00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:55,200
contributing to America uh Amazing

487
00:19:58,970 --> 00:19:56,880
Stories

488
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:58,980
I think he claimed to have fought the

489
00:20:03,169 --> 00:20:01,200
Darrow in a cave the Darrow come from

490
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:03,179
the shaver Mysteries which were oh yeah

491
00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:05,760
the uh Palmer just kind of rewriting

492
00:20:13,070 --> 00:20:07,860
schizophrenic letters

493
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:16,210
I think that um

494
00:20:20,750 --> 00:20:19,440
1947 there was that was the year the uh

495
00:20:23,450 --> 00:20:20,760
Chuck Yeager broke the song barrier

496
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:23,460
right yep it was it was this is also

497
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:26,000
when Roswell happened you know although

498
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:28,080
but like Roswell didn't really enter

499
00:20:31,970 --> 00:20:30,240
sort of the cultural Zeitgeist in a

500
00:20:33,710 --> 00:20:31,980
meaningful sense into the 80s right yeah

501
00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:33,720
there's this great book on it like the

502
00:20:37,250 --> 00:20:35,580
myth of Roswell or something it's not

503
00:20:38,750 --> 00:20:37,260
about denigrating the contents of the

504
00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:38,760
Roswell narrative but rather to talk

505
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:41,700
about how it emerged as an American myth

506
00:20:45,230 --> 00:20:43,440
or kind of shared cultural Touchstone

507
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:45,240
didn't really happen until the mid to

508
00:20:50,090 --> 00:20:48,240
late 80s yeah it was just one of many

509
00:20:51,950 --> 00:20:50,100
um newspaper reports that's the media

510
00:20:53,930 --> 00:20:51,960
really carried this story around and I

511
00:20:55,669 --> 00:20:53,940
think that that is kind of what took off

512
00:20:57,409 --> 00:20:55,679
because like I mentioned the the year

513
00:20:59,090 --> 00:20:57,419
before I think in Scandinavia he had

514
00:21:01,490 --> 00:20:59,100
there was a wave of ghost rocket

515
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:01,500
sightings

516
00:21:05,690 --> 00:21:04,080
they they're not necessarily considered

517
00:21:08,029 --> 00:21:05,700
the same thing

518
00:21:10,730 --> 00:21:08,039
so I I don't know I think I think it was

519
00:21:12,409 --> 00:21:10,740
that Snappy name really yeah it's a meme

520
00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:12,419
it's catchy right it's like a Burma

521
00:21:14,930 --> 00:21:14,220
shave billboard or something people love

522
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:14,940
it

523
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,320
um and I mean this is also look this is

524
00:21:20,810 --> 00:21:18,000
the height the other thing going on here

525
00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:20,820
too we're gonna sort of uh look at the

526
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:22,860
broader kind of landscape this is also a

527
00:21:25,789 --> 00:21:24,240
time it's right after World War II

528
00:21:27,770 --> 00:21:25,799
people are this is sort of the golden

529
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:27,780
age of technology in the Golden Age of

530
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:29,280
Science Fiction this is back when things

531
00:21:33,049 --> 00:21:30,960
were still optimistic right we're not

532
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:33,059
all living in this William Gibson

533
00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:34,799
hallscape we're living in this like

534
00:21:40,909 --> 00:21:37,740
happy Fritz you know

535
00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:40,919
um like Fritz lever pleasure Dome of

536
00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:43,500
like being saved by technology yeah the

537
00:21:46,909 --> 00:21:44,940
dystopia Is Yet To Come yeah the

538
00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:46,919
dystopia is yet to come

539
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:48,780
um and there's also this I think this

540
00:21:54,049 --> 00:21:51,840
also uh proclivity to see technology as

541
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:54,059
a benevolent force that intervened on

542
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:55,919
behalf of saving Humanity right like

543
00:22:01,010 --> 00:21:58,320
this is sort of the raw raw American

544
00:22:03,409 --> 00:22:01,020
view after World War II

545
00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:03,419
um I think people had been accustomed to

546
00:22:08,990 --> 00:22:05,340
technological Marvels at this point and

547
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:09,000
yeah nothing that the UFOs did then or I

548
00:22:13,610 --> 00:22:11,280
think do now are necessarily outside of

549
00:22:16,010 --> 00:22:13,620
like the imagination of our near future

550
00:22:19,010 --> 00:22:16,020
right you know what I mean like at the

551
00:22:21,649 --> 00:22:19,020
time what were the you know the

552
00:22:23,210 --> 00:22:21,659
properties of the UFO beside it being a

553
00:22:26,029 --> 00:22:23,220
saucer was that it would they would move

554
00:22:27,890 --> 00:22:26,039
extremely quickly I don't even think the

555
00:22:30,110 --> 00:22:27,900
um the odd Maneuvers were necessarily

556
00:22:34,370 --> 00:22:30,120
common yet just that they would take off

557
00:22:36,409 --> 00:22:34,380
essentially like a a jet airplane well

558
00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:36,419
I was just gonna jump in and say too

559
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:38,280
Jacques valet and Forbidden Science that

560
00:22:42,049 --> 00:22:40,080
first volume he talks about his sighting

561
00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:42,059
and he literally he sees a literal

562
00:22:46,970 --> 00:22:43,740
Flying Saucer that's what he talks about

563
00:22:49,070 --> 00:22:46,980
it's not an orb it's not Arc cigar or

564
00:22:51,470 --> 00:22:49,080
Rod it is a flying saucer and he

565
00:22:55,549 --> 00:22:51,480
observes it and this is like early 1950s

566
00:22:57,950 --> 00:22:55,559
so is it it would be kind of uh kind of

567
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:57,960
a leap or at least a large coincidence

568
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:00,960
that um extraterrestrials start visiting

569
00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:03,840
us you know the day after

570
00:23:07,370 --> 00:23:05,700
um Kenneth Arnold has his sighting and

571
00:23:09,169 --> 00:23:07,380
what are you talking about they've been

572
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:09,179
here for thousands of years

573
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:11,039
sure

574
00:23:17,570 --> 00:23:14,720
right always kind of mirroring this

575
00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:17,580
yeah right

576
00:23:22,430 --> 00:23:20,340
it's a good point about the timing uh

577
00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:22,440
involved there was so much paranoia

578
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:25,140
after World War II people were familiar

579
00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:28,559
with the fact that the German uh

580
00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:30,480
military and such had developed

581
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:32,580
extremely Advanced Weaponry in the form

582
00:23:47,770 --> 00:23:35,039
of the Rockets the v1s and especially

583
00:23:51,770 --> 00:23:50,210
yeah that's that's basically it you've

584
00:23:55,549 --> 00:23:51,780
been saying on the nice part of the UFO

585
00:23:58,190 --> 00:23:55,559
internet yeah yeah that's a benefit and

586
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:58,200
curse of me sort of jumping in from the

587
00:24:03,890 --> 00:24:00,480
science side don't have this Rich

588
00:24:06,049 --> 00:24:03,900
history of the Nazi conspiracies because

589
00:24:09,890 --> 00:24:06,059
we failed anti-Semitism permeating

590
00:24:12,350 --> 00:24:09,900
everything yes yes but yeah so like the

591
00:24:16,029 --> 00:24:12,360
V2 and it was kind of a novel thing like

592
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:16,039
the V2 it went so fast that it was

593
00:24:20,810 --> 00:24:18,960
silent until there was a sudden

594
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:20,820
explosion in front of you that was

595
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:23,820
extremely doubt had never been occurred

596
00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:25,440
historically and people were completely

597
00:24:30,169 --> 00:24:28,320
blown away by just that on its own that

598
00:24:32,090 --> 00:24:30,179
it's moving so fast or the technology

599
00:24:34,250 --> 00:24:32,100
can produce something like that and then

600
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:34,260
we had the situation where the Soviets

601
00:24:38,270 --> 00:24:36,720
came in on the East the you know Allied

602
00:24:40,010 --> 00:24:38,280
Powers came in on the west and then we

603
00:24:41,570 --> 00:24:40,020
were snatching up all these scientists

604
00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:41,580
especially in the Rock like we've got a

605
00:24:47,210 --> 00:24:44,000
bunch of the rocketry scientists

606
00:24:48,590 --> 00:24:47,220
and the American government we know from

607
00:24:51,289 --> 00:24:48,600
Declassified documents they were

608
00:24:54,110 --> 00:24:51,299
extremely worried the about the idea

609
00:24:56,450 --> 00:24:54,120
that the Soviets had gotten enough

610
00:24:59,149 --> 00:24:56,460
scientists out of there that they now

611
00:25:02,930 --> 00:24:59,159
had a technological Advance advantage in

612
00:25:05,149 --> 00:25:02,940
rocketry and so when you see Sweden uh

613
00:25:09,289 --> 00:25:05,159
over Sweden the idea of these uh ghost

614
00:25:11,450 --> 00:25:09,299
Rockets the next year in 46 he prevalent

615
00:25:13,610 --> 00:25:11,460
the thought was naturally just like we

616
00:25:15,730 --> 00:25:13,620
saw last year was it with the drones

617
00:25:18,409 --> 00:25:15,740
over the nuclear power plants in Sweden

618
00:25:20,029 --> 00:25:18,419
instantaneously it's our old enemy

619
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:20,039
Russia you know the Swedish and Russian

620
00:25:23,570 --> 00:25:21,840
Empires were enemies for dead in

621
00:25:25,070 --> 00:25:23,580
centuries and now they you know they

622
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:25,080
still are very tense

623
00:25:29,210 --> 00:25:27,600
so you know you got this long history if

624
00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:29,220
you're speculating about the Soviets

625
00:25:32,570 --> 00:25:30,720
sort of being responsible for things

626
00:25:34,370 --> 00:25:32,580
that are more advanced than we've ever

627
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:34,380
seen and when you look at the

628
00:25:38,029 --> 00:25:36,240
Declassified documents from the United

629
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:38,039
States uh that's that that's what you

630
00:25:44,289 --> 00:25:41,220
see you see them trying to Define what

631
00:25:47,450 --> 00:25:44,299
it is that people are the core residual

632
00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:47,460
that trusted people are seeing and

633
00:25:52,190 --> 00:25:49,440
they're trying to ascertain

634
00:25:54,529 --> 00:25:52,200
there are these things coming from the

635
00:25:56,690 --> 00:25:54,539
Soviet Union do they exist function

636
00:25:59,870 --> 00:25:56,700
fundamentally do they exist if they do

637
00:26:03,230 --> 00:25:59,880
are they still a good technology

638
00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:03,240
leads us into or at least a path towards

639
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:04,860
talking about disclosure here and that's

640
00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:06,000
the government's involvement

641
00:26:09,010 --> 00:26:07,679
specifically the U.S government's

642
00:26:12,529 --> 00:26:09,020
involvement in

643
00:26:13,250 --> 00:26:12,539
uh a cover-up of this

644
00:26:15,649 --> 00:26:13,260
um

645
00:26:17,210 --> 00:26:15,659
now it's it seems to me now that there's

646
00:26:19,370 --> 00:26:17,220
a lot more government involvement in the

647
00:26:21,529 --> 00:26:19,380
UFO narrative especially lately or you

648
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:21,539
know the past few years

649
00:26:24,409 --> 00:26:22,559
um

650
00:26:26,690 --> 00:26:24,419
but that that story seems to have kind

651
00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:26,700
of changed hasn't it right like like all

652
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:29,460
these um all these Secret Pentagon

653
00:26:32,330 --> 00:26:30,960
departments and stuff like that have no

654
00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:32,340
idea what UFOs are and they're still

655
00:26:35,570 --> 00:26:33,900
researching them right

656
00:26:38,529 --> 00:26:35,580
so what what is it that's being

657
00:26:43,549 --> 00:26:41,330
what is being disclosed well very what

658
00:26:45,289 --> 00:26:43,559
like hypothetically ideally what are

659
00:26:48,409 --> 00:26:45,299
what are they disclosing is it the

660
00:26:50,510 --> 00:26:48,419
alleged crash retrieval programs but if

661
00:26:53,090 --> 00:26:50,520
these crash retrieval programs exist why

662
00:26:56,510 --> 00:26:53,100
did something like Leah's muted why did

663
00:27:00,049 --> 00:26:56,520
something like atip exist after the fact

664
00:27:02,269 --> 00:27:00,059
or not atip but ASAP or any of or uh

665
00:27:04,370 --> 00:27:02,279
Arrow now why do we have Arrow now

666
00:27:08,269 --> 00:27:04,380
that's investigating these UFO sightings

667
00:27:11,210 --> 00:27:08,279
when we also in tandem have crashed

668
00:27:13,850 --> 00:27:11,220
what ships crashed ships yeah well

669
00:27:15,950 --> 00:27:13,860
that's interesting I mean that's it gets

670
00:27:18,529 --> 00:27:15,960
all wrapped up together and there are so

671
00:27:20,930 --> 00:27:18,539
many conflicting elements I think it's

672
00:27:23,090 --> 00:27:20,940
important for or at least valuable for

673
00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:23,100
us to Define roughly what disclosure

674
00:27:28,490 --> 00:27:24,960
means for anybody who's not familiar

675
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:28,500
with the concept disclosure in the UFO

676
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:30,960
Community is a it's almost like a

677
00:27:34,430 --> 00:27:32,880
judgment day of Kinds but like uh

678
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:34,440
perceived in a positive way but it's

679
00:27:39,769 --> 00:27:37,200
seen as this sort of inevitable thing in

680
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:39,779
some of the portion of the community a

681
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:42,480
day when the government steps forward

682
00:27:47,390 --> 00:27:44,000
and

683
00:27:51,049 --> 00:27:47,400
admits or you know verifies that it's

684
00:27:52,789 --> 00:27:51,059
all been true the abductions the crash

685
00:27:55,549 --> 00:27:52,799
retrievals the secret technology

686
00:27:58,010 --> 00:27:55,559
programs based on UFOs that uh the

687
00:28:00,529 --> 00:27:58,020
aliens are here depending on the exact

688
00:28:01,850 --> 00:28:00,539
narrative you know the beliefs about uh

689
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:01,860
the presidents of the United States

690
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:04,559
conspiring with alien races so over

691
00:28:11,930 --> 00:28:07,520
decades so this disclosure day is

692
00:28:13,909 --> 00:28:11,940
verification of The Suite of beliefs

693
00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:13,919
that the particular individual holds

694
00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:29,690
yeah sure I mean I suppose so

695
00:28:35,810 --> 00:28:32,760
can you hear me now exactly yes um oh my

696
00:28:38,510 --> 00:28:35,820
God yes finally so yeah what what has

697
00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:38,520
come from this you know hidden knowledge

698
00:28:43,490 --> 00:28:40,860
that the government's had of either ET

699
00:28:44,510 --> 00:28:43,500
visitation or even crash retrievals do

700
00:28:45,409 --> 00:28:44,520
we have

701
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:45,419
um

702
00:28:49,070 --> 00:28:47,520
like technology to show for it I've seen

703
00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:49,080
people kind of

704
00:28:55,390 --> 00:28:52,740
um posit that uh fiber optic technology

705
00:28:56,930 --> 00:28:55,400
came from that which

706
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:56,940
thing

707
00:29:00,769 --> 00:28:58,559
yeah full of course those day after

708
00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:00,779
Roswell contended that that like I think

709
00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:02,190
Wi-Fi

710
00:29:07,730 --> 00:29:04,200
[Music]

711
00:29:09,769 --> 00:29:07,740
um computers like chips yeah

712
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:09,779
so like I

713
00:29:15,289 --> 00:29:12,240
we're using drones I mean we essentially

714
00:29:16,730 --> 00:29:15,299
understand how drones work what was the

715
00:29:18,529 --> 00:29:16,740
benefit of this knowledge that they've

716
00:29:20,389 --> 00:29:18,539
kept secrets so long that they have yet

717
00:29:22,669 --> 00:29:20,399
to disclose like

718
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,679
are we using in wars and not seeing it

719
00:29:27,710 --> 00:29:24,240
are we are we flying over there in

720
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:27,720
sports models like what what is this

721
00:29:30,669 --> 00:29:28,799
what is this knowledge that they're

722
00:29:33,409 --> 00:29:30,679
hiding it's simple

723
00:29:35,330 --> 00:29:33,419
it may not be explicit technological

724
00:29:37,370 --> 00:29:35,340
knowledge or information it may be a

725
00:29:39,529 --> 00:29:37,380
broader sort of acknowledgment that

726
00:29:42,529 --> 00:29:39,539
we're not the top man on the totem pole

727
00:29:46,909 --> 00:29:42,539
right and that this is sort of viewed as

728
00:29:49,850 --> 00:29:46,919
an admission or an admission of weakness

729
00:29:51,049 --> 00:29:49,860
that leaves us profoundly exposed to

730
00:29:51,769 --> 00:29:51,059
harm

731
00:29:54,649 --> 00:29:51,779
um

732
00:29:56,990 --> 00:29:54,659
or destruction right that that's sort of

733
00:29:59,870 --> 00:29:57,000
the the reason for not disclosing things

734
00:30:02,330 --> 00:29:59,880
it's not about wartime technology it's

735
00:30:03,649 --> 00:30:02,340
about sort of the broader

736
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:03,659
um

737
00:30:09,409 --> 00:30:07,260
shift in how we understand our place uh

738
00:30:12,289 --> 00:30:09,419
not just on Earth but literally in the

739
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:12,299
universe I mean

740
00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:14,100
you remember the pandemic right I mean

741
00:30:20,750 --> 00:30:16,500
like what was the general population I

742
00:30:22,789 --> 00:30:20,760
mean the pandemic exactly exactly so

743
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:22,799
when I hear a lot of people this is

744
00:30:27,649 --> 00:30:26,399
never gonna share our videos now yeah I

745
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:27,659
see a lot of people saying the reason

746
00:30:31,549 --> 00:30:29,279
that disclosure has not happened is

747
00:30:32,930 --> 00:30:31,559
because they see the the public would

748
00:30:34,669 --> 00:30:32,940
not be ready for it and there'd be Mass

749
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:34,679
hysteria and stuff like that but I mean

750
00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:37,679
like that's what the population is even

751
00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:40,799
a virus yeah the Brookings

752
00:30:45,169 --> 00:30:43,200
had that whole report in like the 60s

753
00:30:46,669 --> 00:30:45,179
and 70s about this stuff about basically

754
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:46,679
saying that even if the government knew

755
00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:48,000
this stuff it should never be disclosed

756
00:30:51,049 --> 00:30:49,860
because of what it would cause from a

757
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:51,059
social and cultural disruption

758
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:52,320
perspective

759
00:30:56,269 --> 00:30:54,240
um but yeah Nick I'm with you man like

760
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:56,279
we don't even have consensus reality

761
00:31:03,169 --> 00:31:00,000
about like you know actually

762
00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:03,179
[\h__\h] yes exactly we are all living in

763
00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:04,860
like highly fractured realities right

764
00:31:10,330 --> 00:31:07,500
now we're living in a post-truth era

765
00:31:17,149 --> 00:31:13,389
this is very upsetting so

766
00:31:19,730 --> 00:31:17,159
I usually ask like what what compelled

767
00:31:22,190 --> 00:31:19,740
us to consider the eth or the nhi

768
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:22,200
hypothesis in the first place but what

769
00:31:26,810 --> 00:31:25,440
what evidence is there to you even hint

770
00:31:29,330 --> 00:31:26,820
or suggest that the government is

771
00:31:32,269 --> 00:31:29,340
withholding knowledge

772
00:31:35,870 --> 00:31:32,279
well I would say the evidence that the

773
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:35,880
government is withholding knowledge is I

774
00:31:39,409 --> 00:31:37,919
mean it's simply a fact of history that

775
00:31:40,970 --> 00:31:39,419
the government withholds knowledge so

776
00:31:43,070 --> 00:31:40,980
once again we're sort of stepping into

777
00:31:44,510 --> 00:31:43,080
this territory of like Are UFOs real

778
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:44,520
well of course anything that's

779
00:31:48,289 --> 00:31:46,799
unidentified in this kind of UFO is the

780
00:31:51,289 --> 00:31:48,299
government withholding things yeah all

781
00:31:53,510 --> 00:31:51,299
the time certainly on the subject of UFO

782
00:31:56,810 --> 00:31:53,520
specifically we actually have a huge

783
00:31:59,450 --> 00:31:56,820
body a large body of a long-standing

784
00:32:01,909 --> 00:31:59,460
verified not confrontational or

785
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:01,919
challenging evidence that the

786
00:32:06,769 --> 00:32:03,840
government's done a ton of uh secret

787
00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:06,779
work on the study of UFOs to try to take

788
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:08,100
it seriously and figure out what's going

789
00:32:11,210 --> 00:32:09,840
on and we actually have those reports

790
00:32:13,130 --> 00:32:11,220
and we have the conclusions of those

791
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:13,140
reports and we have the memos that led

792
00:32:18,289 --> 00:32:15,840
to the production of those reports and

793
00:32:20,510 --> 00:32:18,299
though I mean the narrative that emerges

794
00:32:22,850 --> 00:32:20,520
is pretty coherent it's pretty much

795
00:32:26,029 --> 00:32:22,860
exactly what you would think a

796
00:32:27,049 --> 00:32:26,039
government would do under conditions

797
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:27,059
where they're trying to behave

798
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:30,000
responsibly it's exactly what occurred

799
00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:34,559
in the early 50s and onward and you know

800
00:32:40,130 --> 00:32:38,100
is it a conspiracy I mean they're like

801
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:40,140
there are conspiracies okay so we

802
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:42,000
mentioned briefly uh maybe it was last

803
00:32:49,370 --> 00:32:45,120
week that or I did anyway that the

804
00:32:52,430 --> 00:32:49,380
American government had sound listening

805
00:32:54,649 --> 00:32:52,440
devices in the Pacific Ocean for decades

806
00:32:56,389 --> 00:32:54,659
through the Cold War and through those

807
00:32:58,430 --> 00:32:56,399
listening devices they were top secret

808
00:33:00,649 --> 00:32:58,440
they were able to pinpoint the exact

809
00:33:01,610 --> 00:33:00,659
location of the entire Soviet nuclear

810
00:33:04,490 --> 00:33:01,620
Fleet

811
00:33:06,889 --> 00:33:04,500
they kept that secret for decades it's

812
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:06,899
dude we've had drones for like 60 years

813
00:33:12,529 --> 00:33:10,080
yeah but so but speaking so just that

814
00:33:15,409 --> 00:33:12,539
there are these programs with huge

815
00:33:17,630 --> 00:33:15,419
numbers of scientists backing it up uh

816
00:33:19,370 --> 00:33:17,640
totally secrets and uh you know we find

817
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:19,380
out about it later when the

818
00:33:24,529 --> 00:33:22,320
effectiveness of the system wears off or

819
00:33:27,889 --> 00:33:24,539
a variety of things so there's a long

820
00:33:30,049 --> 00:33:27,899
history of governments uh doing things

821
00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:30,059
in the National Security interests and

822
00:33:34,750 --> 00:33:33,240
the idea you gotta take them to account

823
00:33:37,789 --> 00:33:34,760
you got to make sure that they aren't

824
00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:37,799
abusing that power but there's a long

825
00:33:42,649 --> 00:33:40,200
history of them look doing this kind of

826
00:33:44,750 --> 00:33:42,659
stuff in secret because it's necessary

827
00:33:46,850 --> 00:33:44,760
in the interest of National Security to

828
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:46,860
do it that way but given that can we

829
00:33:50,210 --> 00:33:48,720
reasonably suspect them of any

830
00:33:52,370 --> 00:33:50,220
conspiracy then

831
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:52,380
or should there still be you know

832
00:33:55,549 --> 00:33:54,120
something that kind of indicates one way

833
00:33:57,250 --> 00:33:55,559
or the other that led us to that

834
00:34:00,409 --> 00:33:57,260
conclusion

835
00:34:02,810 --> 00:34:00,419
it's also there's also this also

836
00:34:04,490 --> 00:34:02,820
presupposes this notion that the active

837
00:34:06,830 --> 00:34:04,500
disclosure is solely within the hands of

838
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:06,840
the government and not in the hands of

839
00:34:12,409 --> 00:34:09,839
other other cultural or religious or

840
00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:12,419
academic or private institutions right

841
00:34:16,010 --> 00:34:14,700
like we're all we're all walking around

842
00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:16,020
like oh it's the government's job to

843
00:34:19,609 --> 00:34:18,000
tell us this but the reality is huge

844
00:34:21,230 --> 00:34:19,619
huge amounts

845
00:34:22,849 --> 00:34:21,240
um particularly for our future in

846
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:22,859
bleeding edge technology has developed

847
00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:24,240
well aside the government's purview

848
00:34:28,190 --> 00:34:26,220
right the government's the one with like

849
00:34:30,829 --> 00:34:28,200
the bottomless pockets for this kind of

850
00:34:32,270 --> 00:34:30,839
stuff and Skunk Works projects but a ton

851
00:34:34,609 --> 00:34:32,280
of this stuff is happening with private

852
00:34:36,889 --> 00:34:34,619
contractors it's happening you know at

853
00:34:38,329 --> 00:34:36,899
Boeing at Lockheed

854
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:38,339
um

855
00:34:45,649 --> 00:34:43,919
presupposition that this exists within

856
00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:45,659
the hands of the government

857
00:34:48,530 --> 00:34:47,220
um I in a lot of ways I'm much more

858
00:34:50,089 --> 00:34:48,540
inclined to believe this exists in the

859
00:34:51,530 --> 00:34:50,099
hands of the Catholic Church quite

860
00:34:52,849 --> 00:34:51,540
frankly in the government because

861
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:52,859
there's an organized Collective

862
00:34:56,690 --> 00:34:54,480
institution with an extraordinary

863
00:34:58,370 --> 00:34:56,700
intellectual history

864
00:35:01,609 --> 00:34:58,380
um and extraordinary archives and

865
00:35:03,710 --> 00:35:01,619
resources and money and education uh and

866
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:03,720
everybody internally being in very

867
00:35:07,010 --> 00:35:05,040
deliberate lockstep with one another

868
00:35:08,930 --> 00:35:07,020
like that seems to me much more

869
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:08,940
compelling than like a 300 year old

870
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:11,460
country with a lot of guns and no

871
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:13,920
socialized Healthcare right like I I

872
00:35:17,329 --> 00:35:15,359
think it's way more compelling to say

873
00:35:19,490 --> 00:35:17,339
this kind of stuff prob may exist in the

874
00:35:21,349 --> 00:35:19,500
hands of the church

875
00:35:23,390 --> 00:35:21,359
um I'm not saying I agree with that but

876
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:23,400
I am saying that just from the

877
00:35:27,410 --> 00:35:25,200
perspective of this discussion like I'm

878
00:35:28,730 --> 00:35:27,420
not sure I'd even assign this purely to

879
00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:28,740
the government

880
00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:31,200
right I mean that makes sense to me it

881
00:35:37,609 --> 00:35:34,500
depends on yeah what the origin of

882
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:37,619
disclosure will be what does it look

883
00:35:43,250 --> 00:35:39,839
like for there to be disclosure is it

884
00:35:45,290 --> 00:35:43,260
people just presenting uh with personal

885
00:35:47,150 --> 00:35:45,300
accounts of what they've seen and done

886
00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:47,160
because we've had that enough times dude

887
00:35:52,430 --> 00:35:49,560
well how how extensive does the evidence

888
00:35:54,589 --> 00:35:52,440
actually have to be by what institutions

889
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:54,599
both governmental private Etc like

890
00:35:58,430 --> 00:35:56,160
before there's actually common

891
00:36:00,829 --> 00:35:58,440
acceptance of this idea right like we

892
00:36:02,810 --> 00:36:00,839
saw with kovid dude like germ Theory

893
00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:02,820
isn't even accepted by huge portions of

894
00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:04,800
the population plus the sort of

895
00:36:08,569 --> 00:36:06,960
anti-intellectual anti-leadist event

896
00:36:10,250 --> 00:36:08,579
that's like super common especially in

897
00:36:13,250 --> 00:36:10,260
America Campbell

898
00:36:14,990 --> 00:36:13,260
um this notion that like there is any

899
00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:15,000
institution or Collective of

900
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:17,040
Institutions that could provide any kind

901
00:36:21,530 --> 00:36:19,200
of evidence of any caliber that would

902
00:36:24,410 --> 00:36:21,540
largely convince the human population to

903
00:36:25,970 --> 00:36:24,420
me is like that ship has sailed it just

904
00:36:27,290 --> 00:36:25,980
seems impossible to me at this point I

905
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:27,300
think we live in such a fractured

906
00:36:31,010 --> 00:36:28,560
reality

907
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:31,020
um is that there's basically no

908
00:36:34,849 --> 00:36:33,119
narrative that could be presented even

909
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:34,859
with extremely compelling evidence that

910
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:36,720
would be understood and believed by even

911
00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:40,160
a majority of the population

912
00:36:44,990 --> 00:36:42,780
sorry I just want to say the UFO subject

913
00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:45,000
is weird in the sense that it's like

914
00:36:48,890 --> 00:36:47,040
maybe one of the only conspiracy

915
00:36:51,470 --> 00:36:48,900
cultures I could think of where the like

916
00:36:55,870 --> 00:36:51,480
the main goal is to like get the

917
00:36:58,190 --> 00:36:55,880
government to validate the views yeah

918
00:36:59,930 --> 00:36:58,200
do you think that that at least in part

919
00:37:01,370 --> 00:36:59,940
comes from that that idea that I talk

920
00:37:03,349 --> 00:37:01,380
about where

921
00:37:05,870 --> 00:37:03,359
um you know in our society we're

922
00:37:07,849 --> 00:37:05,880
accustomed to kind of uh instant instant

923
00:37:10,609 --> 00:37:07,859
gratification and not only that but uh

924
00:37:13,069 --> 00:37:10,619
always seeking an authority and I think

925
00:37:14,329 --> 00:37:13,079
the UFO space kind of has a lack of a

926
00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:14,339
true Authority because there's nothing

927
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:16,560
yeah we need a daddy to hold our hands

928
00:37:20,569 --> 00:37:18,960
right so not only do we put some of

929
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:20,579
these figures up on pedestals these

930
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:23,520
media figures but we also kind of insist

931
00:37:27,530 --> 00:37:25,200
that the government is the authority and

932
00:37:29,450 --> 00:37:27,540
we demand the answer from them I wonder

933
00:37:31,310 --> 00:37:29,460
if that's kind of like the push that's

934
00:37:33,470 --> 00:37:31,320
pushed disclosure around since at least

935
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:33,480
the 50s like Kehoe and stuff whining

936
00:37:37,069 --> 00:37:34,560
about it

937
00:37:39,710 --> 00:37:37,079
and it's always been kind of imminent

938
00:37:42,650 --> 00:37:39,720
and on that Horizon for 70 plus years

939
00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:42,660
and yes you really don't know anything

940
00:37:47,569 --> 00:37:45,420
else how much does this entire Arc

941
00:37:49,849 --> 00:37:47,579
mirror

942
00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:49,859
um the sort of archetypes associated

943
00:37:53,930 --> 00:37:51,780
with like the Redemption Arc of Christ

944
00:37:56,510 --> 00:37:53,940
right like there is something coming

945
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,520
that is going to redeem us that is going

946
00:38:00,349 --> 00:37:58,560
to explain everything that is literally

947
00:38:01,670 --> 00:38:00,359
going to save us from ourselves right

948
00:38:03,650 --> 00:38:01,680
you see some of these narratives around

949
00:38:04,970 --> 00:38:03,660
like oh they would intervene if there

950
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:04,980
was a nuclear attack or that would

951
00:38:09,050 --> 00:38:07,200
intervene uh yes we should definitely

952
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:09,060
get drunk by a campfire sometime I'm a

953
00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:11,280
lot of fun in those circumstances

954
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:13,440
um we should do we should do an ins ce5

955
00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:14,880
Excursion

956
00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:15,680
um

957
00:38:21,829 --> 00:38:18,180
I lost my train of thought this is what

958
00:38:24,410 --> 00:38:21,839
happens yes people commenting on stuff

959
00:38:30,829 --> 00:38:28,250
yeah UFOs goddamn whatever yeah whatever

960
00:38:32,870 --> 00:38:30,839
well yeah disclosure disclosure is

961
00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:32,880
redemption Arc right this idea that like

962
00:38:36,170 --> 00:38:34,440
this is something that's coming to

963
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:36,180
basically shoehorn us out of the

964
00:38:39,050 --> 00:38:37,680
absolutely miserable situation we've

965
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:39,060
managed to put ourselves in the rest of

966
00:38:43,609 --> 00:38:42,240
humanity in yeah um and uh again Nick

967
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:43,619
this is what you're talking about right

968
00:38:48,170 --> 00:38:45,839
this idea of the UFO daddy that swoops

969
00:38:49,490 --> 00:38:48,180
in you know is the key Authority and

970
00:38:51,530 --> 00:38:49,500
takes care of us and that's it but

971
00:38:53,569 --> 00:38:51,540
that's dude that's such a Christian idea

972
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:53,579
I say this is a Jew right like that's

973
00:38:57,290 --> 00:38:55,200
such a Christian idea of like having

974
00:39:00,170 --> 00:38:57,300
this Redemptive figure come in and fix

975
00:39:01,609 --> 00:39:00,180
stuff for you instead of being like nope

976
00:39:03,290 --> 00:39:01,619
it is this world and we have to deal

977
00:39:07,069 --> 00:39:03,300
with it right here

978
00:39:08,750 --> 00:39:07,079
you know yeah the history of the subject

979
00:39:11,450 --> 00:39:08,760
as it's treated by the government

980
00:39:14,150 --> 00:39:11,460
certainly contradicts The Core Essence

981
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:14,160
of the disclosure narrative we have for

982
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:18,480
example Roswell the you know crash there

983
00:39:25,609 --> 00:39:22,800
is probably the the central unifying

984
00:39:29,329 --> 00:39:25,619
moment in a lot of the modern UFO

985
00:39:31,849 --> 00:39:29,339
cultural uh psychology and the

986
00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:31,859
government was pretty open about that in

987
00:39:35,569 --> 00:39:33,240
the 90s when they actually finally did

988
00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:35,579
an investigation into it right the

989
00:39:39,710 --> 00:39:38,160
Congress and stuff the that came out and

990
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,720
was like oh yeah this is part of this uh

991
00:39:43,069 --> 00:39:41,760
top secret project it's not a weather

992
00:39:46,670 --> 00:39:43,079
balloon because we're tracking weather

993
00:39:48,170 --> 00:39:46,680
it's a much larger kind of balloon uh

994
00:39:49,970 --> 00:39:48,180
with a lot of like radar reflectors and

995
00:39:52,370 --> 00:39:49,980
all this stuff and they got down to the

996
00:39:54,109 --> 00:39:52,380
point where the little icons that people

997
00:39:56,109 --> 00:39:54,119
were drawing from remembering seeing it

998
00:39:58,970 --> 00:39:56,119
on the pieces of

999
00:40:01,310 --> 00:39:58,980
materials from the i-beams it's traced

1000
00:40:03,890 --> 00:40:01,320
back to the the type of tape that was

1001
00:40:05,690 --> 00:40:03,900
used by the scientist who uh put it

1002
00:40:07,970 --> 00:40:05,700
together physically

1003
00:40:12,170 --> 00:40:07,980
um you know a very compelling

1004
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,180
um and that's not accepted at all by the

1005
00:40:17,150 --> 00:40:14,400
majority of this community that is

1006
00:40:19,329 --> 00:40:17,160
looking for disclosure to happen and so

1007
00:40:21,710 --> 00:40:19,339
like there are these very deep

1008
00:40:23,930 --> 00:40:21,720
contradictions where when you get

1009
00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:23,940
something that could be said to be a

1010
00:40:29,930 --> 00:40:27,420
kind of disclosure I.E yeah like

1011
00:40:31,490 --> 00:40:29,940
originally like the base did say it was

1012
00:40:33,470 --> 00:40:31,500
a flying saucer that crashed like

1013
00:40:35,870 --> 00:40:33,480
looking back on it it looks like maybe

1014
00:40:37,910 --> 00:40:35,880
the Intel officer and the commander

1015
00:40:40,370 --> 00:40:37,920
panic because they realized they had

1016
00:40:43,010 --> 00:40:40,380
like a really top secret thing on their

1017
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,020
hands like I don't but it's it's like we

1018
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:45,359
it sort of flips it around and

1019
00:40:50,990 --> 00:40:48,480
what do we do with that where if if

1020
00:40:53,210 --> 00:40:51,000
disclosure day comes and then you just

1021
00:40:56,050 --> 00:40:53,220
have a panel where people come out and

1022
00:40:57,950 --> 00:40:56,060
sort of say things of

1023
00:41:00,589 --> 00:40:57,960
validating certain beliefs maybe

1024
00:41:02,030 --> 00:41:00,599
rejecting others it's not going to end

1025
00:41:04,010 --> 00:41:02,040
with anything and then there's just

1026
00:41:05,870 --> 00:41:04,020
going to be an endless push forward

1027
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:05,880
isn't there

1028
00:41:10,670 --> 00:41:08,400
I've noticed that like another cryo kind

1029
00:41:12,290 --> 00:41:10,680
of Tandem with disclosure is for science

1030
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:12,300
to

1031
00:41:16,190 --> 00:41:14,160
either take this seriously or

1032
00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:16,200
investigate it and I want to know

1033
00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:18,540
uh if either of you have any

1034
00:41:23,450 --> 00:41:20,400
um suggestions on how that would happen

1035
00:41:25,550 --> 00:41:23,460
because I kind of see the entirety of

1036
00:41:28,970 --> 00:41:25,560
the UFO field as

1037
00:41:30,349 --> 00:41:28,980
you know witness testimony solely right

1038
00:41:34,910 --> 00:41:30,359
we don't have any

1039
00:41:35,810 --> 00:41:34,920
UFO residue or pieces really we don't

1040
00:41:39,050 --> 00:41:35,820
have

1041
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:39,060
um flying sausages yeah any kind of uh

1042
00:41:44,630 --> 00:41:41,280
physical evidence to this so

1043
00:41:46,490 --> 00:41:44,640
so give this problem the 70-year problem

1044
00:41:49,069 --> 00:41:46,500
that we've kind of created not that

1045
00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:49,079
there's strict criteria for what these

1046
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:50,640
UFOs are but like

1047
00:41:54,109 --> 00:41:52,800
you you have a scientist who's willing

1048
00:41:56,510 --> 00:41:54,119
to look at this what is what does this

1049
00:41:57,950 --> 00:41:56,520
person do what does the scientist do

1050
00:41:59,690 --> 00:41:57,960
right and also how do we bring in

1051
00:42:01,130 --> 00:41:59,700
scientists and academics that are like

1052
00:42:03,530 --> 00:42:01,140
totally [\h__\h] sorry totally

1053
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:03,540
brainwormed with like

1054
00:42:09,770 --> 00:42:07,680
that's impossible right yeah can I say

1055
00:42:13,550 --> 00:42:09,780
this like I say this as the resident

1056
00:42:14,329 --> 00:42:13,560
like wootard basically like new person

1057
00:42:16,190 --> 00:42:14,339
um

1058
00:42:18,410 --> 00:42:16,200
but like how do we bring in people that

1059
00:42:22,550 --> 00:42:18,420
that like aren't but also on the other

1060
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:22,560
side aren't so catastrophically

1061
00:42:28,010 --> 00:42:25,200
um welded to

1062
00:42:31,130 --> 00:42:28,020
other particular outcomes that they're

1063
00:42:32,510 --> 00:42:31,140
able to evaluate I mean I Thinking Out

1064
00:42:35,930 --> 00:42:32,520
Loud here I think the real way to do

1065
00:42:37,550 --> 00:42:35,940
this is rather than uh is basically not

1066
00:42:39,290 --> 00:42:37,560
just

1067
00:42:41,210 --> 00:42:39,300
um is through an interdisciplinary

1068
00:42:43,490 --> 00:42:41,220
approach but also through like a

1069
00:42:46,069 --> 00:42:43,500
cross-functional exploration right like

1070
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:46,079
you have multiple disciplines and

1071
00:42:50,470 --> 00:42:49,200
thinkers in different fields represented

1072
00:42:52,670 --> 00:42:50,480
um

1073
00:42:54,829 --> 00:42:52,680
right like what does it actually mean to

1074
00:42:58,270 --> 00:42:54,839
do this right is it Anthropologist is it

1075
00:43:01,730 --> 00:42:58,280
folklorists is it uh

1076
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:01,740
who is it from my perspective but but

1077
00:43:05,809 --> 00:43:04,560
like from the perspective of a a truth

1078
00:43:07,010 --> 00:43:05,819
Seeker or you have a Believer or an

1079
00:43:08,089 --> 00:43:07,020
experience or whatever you want to be

1080
00:43:11,450 --> 00:43:08,099
called

1081
00:43:14,030 --> 00:43:11,460
what what is it the the anyone sees

1082
00:43:15,650 --> 00:43:14,040
science doing like does anyone in the

1083
00:43:18,109 --> 00:43:15,660
chat have an idea either like what are

1084
00:43:19,970 --> 00:43:18,119
we doing we're really looking for

1085
00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:19,980
patterns and witness reports right

1086
00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:22,079
because like dude if you asked me like I

1087
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:23,640
would say the process of like taking

1088
00:43:27,770 --> 00:43:26,160
pictures of the atmosphere is like a

1089
00:43:29,630 --> 00:43:27,780
Fool's errand we already know that

1090
00:43:31,609 --> 00:43:29,640
there's unusual and strange atmospheric

1091
00:43:33,730 --> 00:43:31,619
phenomena we know that there's plasma we

1092
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:33,740
know that there's Steve

1093
00:43:38,569 --> 00:43:36,720
you know that these things exist

1094
00:43:40,609 --> 00:43:38,579
um that that stuff is completely

1095
00:43:41,690 --> 00:43:40,619
uninteresting and uncompelling to me at

1096
00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:41,700
this point because we've already

1097
00:43:47,210 --> 00:43:44,460
established that even if we can't

1098
00:43:49,990 --> 00:43:47,220
prove the existence of this phenomena to

1099
00:43:51,950 --> 00:43:50,000
the standards of Western Scientific

1100
00:43:54,050 --> 00:43:51,960
empiricism right like we didn't know

1101
00:43:55,790 --> 00:43:54,060
about ball no about ball lightning until

1102
00:43:59,329 --> 00:43:55,800
like 10 years ago

1103
00:44:00,650 --> 00:43:59,339
um like to me it requires

1104
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:00,660
um

1105
00:44:04,130 --> 00:44:02,880
at the end to me the really cool stuff

1106
00:44:06,050 --> 00:44:04,140
would be if you could get the like

1107
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:06,060
Raymond booties of the world taking this

1108
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:07,440
kind of stuff seriously like the guys

1109
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:09,060
who are studying like near-death

1110
00:44:14,030 --> 00:44:12,359
experiences out of body experiences

1111
00:44:16,130 --> 00:44:14,040
um and Consciousness right like what

1112
00:44:18,410 --> 00:44:16,140
makes the mind or the brain behave and

1113
00:44:20,510 --> 00:44:18,420
act in certain ways under particular

1114
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:20,520
circumstances

1115
00:44:23,089 --> 00:44:21,359
um

1116
00:44:26,329 --> 00:44:23,099
because I just don't find the like

1117
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:26,339
material atmospheric physics stuff

1118
00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:32,270
like like there's already tons of

1119
00:44:36,050 --> 00:44:33,780
evidence of this stuff but like there's

1120
00:44:37,849 --> 00:44:36,060
nothing necessarily mysterious about it

1121
00:44:39,829 --> 00:44:37,859
we just we know it exists like the

1122
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:39,839
hesterlin lights you know well what

1123
00:44:46,190 --> 00:44:42,480
what's what's a falsifiable hypothesis

1124
00:44:54,650 --> 00:44:48,950
don't do this to me man there's the null

1125
00:44:58,970 --> 00:44:56,870
so I mean and that would that would

1126
00:45:00,770 --> 00:44:58,980
essentially be saying like these are

1127
00:45:02,450 --> 00:45:00,780
explainable objects that we don't have

1128
00:45:04,309 --> 00:45:02,460
enough information on and you can look

1129
00:45:06,650 --> 00:45:04,319
into those in some circumstances you can

1130
00:45:10,010 --> 00:45:06,660
solve them that's considered debunking

1131
00:45:12,050 --> 00:45:10,020
but I think that that is the closest way

1132
00:45:14,990 --> 00:45:12,060
you can treat the UFO problem with

1133
00:45:18,290 --> 00:45:15,000
science is by using all hypothesis by

1134
00:45:21,109 --> 00:45:18,300
conventional science yes right yeah so

1135
00:45:23,210 --> 00:45:21,119
it again I I see it more of the demand

1136
00:45:25,370 --> 00:45:23,220
for science is more of just a demand for

1137
00:45:28,250 --> 00:45:25,380
another type of authority to say yes

1138
00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:28,260
you're right that's an alien I confirm

1139
00:45:33,230 --> 00:45:31,140
this right more than actually like

1140
00:45:36,589 --> 00:45:33,240
looking at it scientifically in my

1141
00:45:38,990 --> 00:45:36,599
opinion right well the uh the study

1142
00:45:41,089 --> 00:45:39,000
within the government anyway we can look

1143
00:45:43,010 --> 00:45:41,099
at how how they approached it that it's

1144
00:45:45,890 --> 00:45:43,020
worthwhile taking a look at that they

1145
00:45:47,450 --> 00:45:45,900
started collecting witness reports and

1146
00:45:52,130 --> 00:45:47,460
they started categorizing what people

1147
00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:52,140
were reporting and then in uh it was 51

1148
00:45:57,770 --> 00:45:54,480
if I recall correctly they actually put

1149
00:45:59,569 --> 00:45:57,780
a team of people out at Los Alamos with

1150
00:46:01,370 --> 00:45:59,579
a variety of instruments though they

1151
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:01,380
didn't provide adequate budgeted funding

1152
00:46:06,890 --> 00:46:03,119
for all of the instruments that were

1153
00:46:09,290 --> 00:46:06,900
requested to stake out the nuclear lab

1154
00:46:10,970 --> 00:46:09,300
where they had scientists reporting

1155
00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:10,980
observations of

1156
00:46:15,790 --> 00:46:13,140
green fireballs and things of that

1157
00:46:19,250 --> 00:46:15,800
nature uh that were behaving strangely

1158
00:46:21,230 --> 00:46:19,260
and they did they report project twinkle

1159
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:21,240
and what it said was it seems that

1160
00:46:25,250 --> 00:46:23,280
there's something being observed Dr

1161
00:46:27,890 --> 00:46:25,260
Kaplan is one of the nuclear physicists

1162
00:46:29,809 --> 00:46:27,900
believes that they're natural phenomena

1163
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:29,819
um you know and then they say we're

1164
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:31,920
taking a serious look at the idea of

1165
00:46:35,930 --> 00:46:34,319
fireballs which Encompass a wide variety

1166
00:46:37,849 --> 00:46:35,940
of atmospheric phenomena including

1167
00:46:39,050 --> 00:46:37,859
meteor coming in and ball lighting and

1168
00:46:41,450 --> 00:46:39,060
things like that they say we're taking

1169
00:46:43,130 --> 00:46:41,460
serious look at this stuff because we're

1170
00:46:46,430 --> 00:46:43,140
worried that the Russians are ahead of

1171
00:46:47,930 --> 00:46:46,440
us on it and so that's that's why

1172
00:46:49,849 --> 00:46:47,940
they're taking it seriously and they say

1173
00:46:51,770 --> 00:46:49,859
uh we haven't made a conclusive

1174
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:51,780
determination what we have determined is

1175
00:46:55,609 --> 00:46:53,760
that the sightings when we're actually

1176
00:46:58,130 --> 00:46:55,619
staking it out are at a much reduced

1177
00:47:00,170 --> 00:46:58,140
rate than when the reports are just

1178
00:47:02,390 --> 00:47:00,180
coming in without people staking it out

1179
00:47:03,890 --> 00:47:02,400
and there seemed to be this sort of set

1180
00:47:06,890 --> 00:47:03,900
of features that people are consistent

1181
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:06,900
with reporting but we can't verify that

1182
00:47:11,210 --> 00:47:08,880
that exists so so they went out there

1183
00:47:14,809 --> 00:47:11,220
with Optical instruments uh they were

1184
00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:14,819
trying to get a shot of the things so so

1185
00:47:18,109 --> 00:47:16,800
they started with that perspective in

1186
00:47:20,329 --> 00:47:18,119
mind

1187
00:47:22,490 --> 00:47:20,339
to like sit there and try to like get a

1188
00:47:24,290 --> 00:47:22,500
photo and and that's something that we

1189
00:47:26,569 --> 00:47:24,300
see continuing

1190
00:47:29,630 --> 00:47:26,579
um into the public sphere when we start

1191
00:47:32,270 --> 00:47:29,640
looking at the origins of Private

1192
00:47:33,710 --> 00:47:32,280
Investigations and the first one that

1193
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:33,720
was long-standing was the project

1194
00:47:39,890 --> 00:47:36,240
identification uh started by Professor

1195
00:47:42,050 --> 00:47:39,900
Harley Rutledge out of University of uh

1196
00:47:43,609 --> 00:47:42,060
Southeast Missouri if I recall correctly

1197
00:47:46,970 --> 00:47:43,619
I believe it was a solid state physicist

1198
00:47:49,010 --> 00:47:46,980
he stacked out a UFO flap for a couple

1199
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,020
of years wrote a book uh I believe it

1200
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:51,119
was called project identification he

1201
00:47:55,849 --> 00:47:53,760
reported very similar objects to what

1202
00:47:58,370 --> 00:47:55,859
had been reported previously and then we

1203
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,380
have hezdollen famously or infamously

1204
00:48:03,170 --> 00:48:00,480
Professor erling strand they ended up

1205
00:48:05,870 --> 00:48:03,180
doing long-term surveys there and the

1206
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:05,880
descriptions were again similar

1207
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:09,359
um so and then um at hezdalen we had a

1208
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:10,800
we actually had him as what was the

1209
00:48:18,109 --> 00:48:12,960
first guest on our show uh because of me

1210
00:48:23,329 --> 00:48:20,930
asked him out I'm so glad you did all

1211
00:48:24,950 --> 00:48:23,339
right I said I got him on like four or

1212
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:24,960
five shows like in one year there

1213
00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:27,200
because

1214
00:48:33,490 --> 00:48:29,220
out of the blank with them to you

1215
00:48:36,349 --> 00:48:33,500
recently uh a while ago yeah in UCR

1216
00:48:39,170 --> 00:48:36,359
is that on ucrb without Singularity lab

1217
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,180
he was scheduled to be on UCR oh yeah

1218
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:41,040
yeah so he's been he was around

1219
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:42,960
um but uh anyway and he uh

1220
00:48:47,210 --> 00:48:44,880
astrophysicist he was there for a few

1221
00:48:48,530 --> 00:48:47,220
years in the early 2000s wrote a paper a

1222
00:48:50,089 --> 00:48:48,540
long-term scientific survey of the

1223
00:48:51,950 --> 00:48:50,099
hezdollen light phenomenon it was

1224
00:48:54,530 --> 00:48:51,960
published in the Journal of scientific

1225
00:48:57,230 --> 00:48:54,540
exploration which is not a it is

1226
00:48:59,630 --> 00:48:57,240
peer-reviewed but it produces a variety

1227
00:49:01,609 --> 00:48:59,640
it's not a good standard but it's not

1228
00:49:05,089 --> 00:49:01,619
the worst either it's not a natural

1229
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:05,099
science yes it's not Natural Science

1230
00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:07,680
it's sort of like Paranormal phenomena

1231
00:49:10,550 --> 00:49:08,700
stuff

1232
00:49:12,770 --> 00:49:10,560
um you know but anyway his reports

1233
00:49:16,190 --> 00:49:12,780
describes very similar characteristics

1234
00:49:17,690 --> 00:49:16,200
but then he says uh you know the most uh

1235
00:49:19,550 --> 00:49:17,700
probable explanation for a number of

1236
00:49:21,650 --> 00:49:19,560
these observations is an electrochemical

1237
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:21,660
model for ball lightning in any cites a

1238
00:49:24,950 --> 00:49:23,040
variety of the papers over the last

1239
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:24,960
couple of years that demonstrate the

1240
00:49:30,470 --> 00:49:28,200
plausibility uh mechanistically of an

1241
00:49:32,630 --> 00:49:30,480
object like that occurring and then in

1242
00:49:35,329 --> 00:49:32,640
the decade and a half after that then we

1243
00:49:37,370 --> 00:49:35,339
had a wide variety of replicable

1244
00:49:39,230 --> 00:49:37,380
experiments showing uh plurality of

1245
00:49:41,870 --> 00:49:39,240
different ways of producing all

1246
00:49:43,430 --> 00:49:41,880
lightning phenomena in lab scenarios in

1247
00:49:45,230 --> 00:49:43,440
normal atmospheric conditions that would

1248
00:49:46,910 --> 00:49:45,240
exist in nature and then we have the

1249
00:49:48,050 --> 00:49:46,920
2014 optical and spectral

1250
00:49:50,030 --> 00:49:48,060
characteristics of all lightning

1251
00:49:52,030 --> 00:49:50,040
published in physical review letters

1252
00:49:57,010 --> 00:49:52,040
where they actually got

1253
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:57,020
this in my ears man am I Whispering yeah

1254
00:50:03,230 --> 00:50:00,240
the optical ones

1255
00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:03,240
it all uh yeah so so there is this sort

1256
00:50:07,790 --> 00:50:04,800
of consistent theme where there's this

1257
00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:07,800
core uh observations

1258
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:10,800
um it's reminding me of a few of the the

1259
00:50:18,530 --> 00:50:14,040
memos from the CIA relating to the

1260
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:18,540
Washington uh 1952 uh DC flyover events

1261
00:50:23,329 --> 00:50:22,079
in July when they're uh a bunch of memos

1262
00:50:24,650 --> 00:50:23,339
and they talk about

1263
00:50:26,569 --> 00:50:24,660
um I've gotta actually maybe I'll just

1264
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:26,579
share the screen and I can show you but

1265
00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:29,280
um it's like they describe what they're

1266
00:50:34,130 --> 00:50:31,680
looking for and it's similar to Dr jail

1267
00:50:36,950 --> 00:50:34,140
and heinek when he describes exactly

1268
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:36,960
what he believes as the core residual of

1269
00:50:45,290 --> 00:50:40,800
cases with a common set of features

1270
00:50:47,569 --> 00:50:45,300
um let's see here share here we go so

1271
00:50:49,069 --> 00:50:47,579
this is uh yeah the memos computer UFO

1272
00:50:50,450 --> 00:50:49,079
Network out them

1273
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:50,460
um and here we go let's see I just took

1274
00:50:55,370 --> 00:50:51,839
them out of there but you can go through

1275
00:50:57,650 --> 00:50:55,380
so let's see here grouped broadly as

1276
00:50:59,510 --> 00:50:57,660
visual radar confined visual radar two

1277
00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:59,520
major Clauses first spherical or

1278
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:01,200
elliptical usually bright or metallic

1279
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:04,559
luster some small estimated uh you know

1280
00:51:08,930 --> 00:51:07,200
most estimated 100 feet let's see here

1281
00:51:11,390 --> 00:51:08,940
there are variants such as Torpedoes

1282
00:51:13,849 --> 00:51:11,400
triangulars pencils even mattress shapes

1283
00:51:16,190 --> 00:51:13,859
they these are all daylight reportings

1284
00:51:18,950 --> 00:51:16,200
the second visual group all night

1285
00:51:21,109 --> 00:51:18,960
recording consists of lights and very of

1286
00:51:23,329 --> 00:51:21,119
and various luminosities such as green

1287
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:23,339
flaming red or blue white Fireballs

1288
00:51:26,450 --> 00:51:25,200
moving points of light and luminous

1289
00:51:28,190 --> 00:51:26,460
streamers

1290
00:51:30,170 --> 00:51:28,200
and then it says no no debris or

1291
00:51:34,250 --> 00:51:30,180
material evidence has ever been recorded

1292
00:51:35,870 --> 00:51:34,260
so they are describing something they're

1293
00:51:37,549 --> 00:51:35,880
describing these lights

1294
00:51:40,190 --> 00:51:37,559
when we look at

1295
00:51:41,809 --> 00:51:40,200
you know modern reports we see something

1296
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:41,819
very similar descriptions of these

1297
00:51:45,470 --> 00:51:43,200
lights

1298
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:45,480
um when we go to other

1299
00:51:48,410 --> 00:51:47,280
memos and documents from inside the

1300
00:51:49,970 --> 00:51:48,420
government they're describing something

1301
00:51:51,849 --> 00:51:49,980
very similar

1302
00:51:54,290 --> 00:51:51,859
um and if I can just find Jay Dr

1303
00:51:55,910 --> 00:51:54,300
heinek's descriptions here we go yeah

1304
00:51:57,770 --> 00:51:55,920
his descriptions

1305
00:51:59,329 --> 00:51:57,780
the same classification and I don't

1306
00:52:00,650 --> 00:51:59,339
think this was in 72 when he published

1307
00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:00,660
this I'm pretty sure that these CA

1308
00:52:03,770 --> 00:52:02,400
members were not yet actually released I

1309
00:52:05,150 --> 00:52:03,780
believe it was in 79 they got released

1310
00:52:06,770 --> 00:52:05,160
so he actually created a classification

1311
00:52:07,970 --> 00:52:06,780
distinct from the secrets yeah that all

1312
00:52:09,470 --> 00:52:07,980
right is identical

1313
00:52:11,809 --> 00:52:09,480
so he goes nocturnal lights daylight

1314
00:52:14,329 --> 00:52:11,819
discs so then he describes uh

1315
00:52:16,910 --> 00:52:14,339
at night only the brightness color and

1316
00:52:18,589 --> 00:52:16,920
motion of a light are reported rarely is

1317
00:52:20,450 --> 00:52:18,599
the object noted to which the light is

1318
00:52:22,370 --> 00:52:20,460
presumably attached this is purely an

1319
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:22,380
assumption the UFO may be nothing more

1320
00:52:26,930 --> 00:52:24,720
than the light and you know it just goes

1321
00:52:28,490 --> 00:52:26,940
on but it's like these objects it's like

1322
00:52:31,370 --> 00:52:28,500
it's not a flying software that you

1323
00:52:33,890 --> 00:52:31,380
think of it's a uniformly glowing light

1324
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:33,900
of various colors that exhibits the

1325
00:52:38,270 --> 00:52:36,240
features that people say the you know

1326
00:52:40,069 --> 00:52:38,280
spaceships are doing

1327
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:40,079
so you know so when we're looking at

1328
00:52:44,750 --> 00:52:42,000
disclosure what do we uh what do we do

1329
00:52:47,329 --> 00:52:44,760
with that right like that what was the

1330
00:52:49,849 --> 00:52:47,339
reaction to any of these reports from

1331
00:52:52,549 --> 00:52:49,859
the government about UFOs they weren't

1332
00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:52,559
trusted right yes it's only the one that

1333
00:52:56,750 --> 00:52:54,960
confirms uh your suspicions that you're

1334
00:52:58,430 --> 00:52:56,760
going to believe like you have to

1335
00:53:00,829 --> 00:52:58,440
reflect on that and

1336
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:00,839
be kind of aware

1337
00:53:06,290 --> 00:53:04,160
yes absolutely and uh

1338
00:53:11,470 --> 00:53:06,300
did uh did either of you see that

1339
00:53:16,270 --> 00:53:14,210
what people actually think UFOs are or

1340
00:53:19,370 --> 00:53:16,280
like what percentage

1341
00:53:21,049 --> 00:53:19,380
it was yeah I said what what percentage

1342
00:53:24,170 --> 00:53:21,059
of reported cases do you think are

1343
00:53:25,970 --> 00:53:24,180
misidentifications or hoaxes I think I

1344
00:53:28,490 --> 00:53:25,980
and a lot of people think like hoaxes

1345
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:28,500
are a very small percentage yes I agree

1346
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:30,720
I mean like they get a lot of uh

1347
00:53:33,950 --> 00:53:32,160
publicity and stuff like they don't they

1348
00:53:38,210 --> 00:53:33,960
don't make very many reported cases so

1349
00:53:40,190 --> 00:53:38,220
like I I got about 400 replies which you

1350
00:53:42,049 --> 00:53:40,200
know isn't like a huge sample size but

1351
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:42,059
we are talking about not a huge

1352
00:53:46,849 --> 00:53:44,160
community and the majority of the

1353
00:53:50,829 --> 00:53:46,859
answers were somewhere between 80 to

1354
00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:50,839
like 95 to 99 percent

1355
00:53:55,010 --> 00:53:53,160
meanwhile these and

1356
00:53:57,589 --> 00:53:55,020
these weren't just skeptic responses

1357
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:57,599
I've got uh friends on all sides of this

1358
00:54:02,390 --> 00:54:00,240
and um they all kind of agree there's a

1359
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:02,400
consensus between everyone like the

1360
00:54:06,589 --> 00:54:04,160
majority of these are

1361
00:54:08,450 --> 00:54:06,599
misinterpretations misidentifications

1362
00:54:10,910 --> 00:54:08,460
but I think there's some kind of

1363
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:10,920
Disconnect When the UFO proponents are

1364
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:12,240
saying this and I did follow up with

1365
00:54:17,930 --> 00:54:14,400
this how does that make you feel about

1366
00:54:20,089 --> 00:54:17,940
witness testimony since the majority if

1367
00:54:22,010 --> 00:54:20,099
you know the overwhelming majority of

1368
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:22,020
the data in this field is witness

1369
00:54:26,510 --> 00:54:23,520
testimony

1370
00:54:29,870 --> 00:54:26,520
I and I mentioned this in regard to that

1371
00:54:32,630 --> 00:54:29,880
uh that hearing with um Kirkpatrick

1372
00:54:35,150 --> 00:54:32,640
where the majority of these reports

1373
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:35,160
being reported by service members these

1374
00:54:39,950 --> 00:54:37,440
trained Witnesses are of misidentified

1375
00:54:42,530 --> 00:54:39,960
things it really illustrates how easy

1376
00:54:45,109 --> 00:54:42,540
this is to happen like people don't have

1377
00:54:46,970 --> 00:54:45,119
you know a good look at things in 2020

1378
00:54:48,829 --> 00:54:46,980
Vision constantly you know what I mean

1379
00:54:51,170 --> 00:54:48,839
like you you cannot get good looks at

1380
00:54:52,370 --> 00:54:51,180
things and your brain kind of fills it

1381
00:54:55,849 --> 00:54:52,380
in

1382
00:54:58,790 --> 00:54:55,859
if it's so simple how how can we

1383
00:55:01,250 --> 00:54:58,800
in one hand say that say you know 90 of

1384
00:55:03,349 --> 00:55:01,260
these are misidentifications but we

1385
00:55:04,790 --> 00:55:03,359
we need scientists to look at this data

1386
00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:04,800
but it's all witness testimony like

1387
00:55:09,109 --> 00:55:07,440
witness testimony only gives us

1388
00:55:10,910 --> 00:55:09,119
the witness's interpretation of the

1389
00:55:13,130 --> 00:55:10,920
event not the reality of it but it also

1390
00:55:15,230 --> 00:55:13,140
is subject to change over time to

1391
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:15,240
exaggerate over time I've shown

1392
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:18,960
privately you two an example of this

1393
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:21,119
over the last 20 years a witness

1394
00:55:24,829 --> 00:55:23,040
testimony changing

1395
00:55:26,690 --> 00:55:24,839
it uh it was personal conversation with

1396
00:55:28,190 --> 00:55:26,700
a witness I don't want to show it on

1397
00:55:29,329 --> 00:55:28,200
here or anything but cable you recall

1398
00:55:32,089 --> 00:55:29,339
this right

1399
00:55:35,150 --> 00:55:32,099
had to do with uh the lights being seen

1400
00:55:37,250 --> 00:55:35,160
and how they were depicted later uh via

1401
00:55:39,290 --> 00:55:37,260
CGI if you recall I don't want to get

1402
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:39,300
too far into that okay yeah you know you

1403
00:55:42,530 --> 00:55:41,280
know what I'm talking about yes yeah we

1404
00:55:43,130 --> 00:55:42,540
have we have

1405
00:55:45,950 --> 00:55:43,140
um

1406
00:55:48,049 --> 00:55:45,960
one of the most imperfect forms of data

1407
00:55:49,849 --> 00:55:48,059
that's you know not only subject to

1408
00:55:51,230 --> 00:55:49,859
interpretation but subject to change

1409
00:55:53,390 --> 00:55:51,240
over time

1410
00:55:55,309 --> 00:55:53,400
Witnesses yeah

1411
00:55:58,490 --> 00:55:55,319
um but that but that's all we have so

1412
00:56:00,349 --> 00:55:58,500
like how would science work with that

1413
00:56:01,849 --> 00:56:00,359
from this standpoint you give this to a

1414
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:01,859
New Scientist like I was saying earlier

1415
00:56:06,290 --> 00:56:04,079
what are we doing here

1416
00:56:09,109 --> 00:56:06,300
what's what's the

1417
00:56:10,849 --> 00:56:09,119
what do you do with it and why does

1418
00:56:14,950 --> 00:56:10,859
this kind of circles back to the

1419
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:14,960
beginning what is the purpose of ufology

1420
00:56:20,809 --> 00:56:17,760
why do we why do we do it because what I

1421
00:56:22,910 --> 00:56:20,819
see ufology as is less of a

1422
00:56:26,450 --> 00:56:22,920
less of a academic

1423
00:56:28,130 --> 00:56:26,460
thing or a science and more of a more of

1424
00:56:29,809 --> 00:56:28,140
a fandom honestly and I don't mean to be

1425
00:56:32,569 --> 00:56:29,819
insulting but it's

1426
00:56:35,150 --> 00:56:32,579
it's a community of content consumption

1427
00:56:37,309 --> 00:56:35,160
watching UFO documentaries reading the

1428
00:56:39,470 --> 00:56:37,319
books it's yeah all this content

1429
00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:39,480
consumption and then that makes me

1430
00:56:45,890 --> 00:56:42,960
wonder what we are doing do are we

1431
00:56:47,870 --> 00:56:45,900
feeding the fire by creating content

1432
00:57:01,630 --> 00:56:47,880
just right how do we ethically engage

1433
00:57:04,970 --> 00:57:04,250
right this was you know this was

1434
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:04,980
something

1435
00:57:12,109 --> 00:57:10,079
about a lot uh with Lou Jimenez

1436
00:57:13,970 --> 00:57:12,119
one-on-one he and I talked a lot about

1437
00:57:15,710 --> 00:57:13,980
sort of the ethics of engaging in this

1438
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:15,720
kind of subject I mean this is something

1439
00:57:19,670 --> 00:57:18,000
I mean I come out this look

1440
00:57:21,290 --> 00:57:19,680
um in my research and writing on Art

1441
00:57:22,549 --> 00:57:21,300
Bell and Coast to Coast AM this is

1442
00:57:26,690 --> 00:57:22,559
something I struggle with immensely

1443
00:57:29,930 --> 00:57:26,700
because art was phenomenally formative

1444
00:57:31,690 --> 00:57:29,940
um for me both as a media figure and

1445
00:57:36,109 --> 00:57:31,700
intellectual figure and cultural figure

1446
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:36,119
but also he laid the foundation of this

1447
00:57:39,950 --> 00:57:37,280
sort of

1448
00:57:42,589 --> 00:57:39,960
conspiratorial broad cloth that now

1449
00:57:44,990 --> 00:57:42,599
blankets huge swaths of American culture

1450
00:57:47,150 --> 00:57:45,000
and politics like he was the springboard

1451
00:57:49,069 --> 00:57:47,160
for Alex Jones he was the springboard

1452
00:57:51,950 --> 00:57:49,079
for Jimmy church and a lot of these

1453
00:57:53,870 --> 00:57:51,960
characters and like how do I write how

1454
00:57:55,370 --> 00:57:53,880
do I how do I do these things

1455
00:57:57,049 --> 00:57:55,380
simultaneously right like we're

1456
00:57:58,670 --> 00:57:57,059
grown-ups we have we're able to have

1457
00:58:00,650 --> 00:57:58,680
complex thoughts and engage with and

1458
00:58:02,990 --> 00:58:00,660
think about things in a sophisticated

1459
00:58:04,490 --> 00:58:03,000
fashion but like how do I engage and

1460
00:58:06,170 --> 00:58:04,500
think about something that was

1461
00:58:07,670 --> 00:58:06,180
personally so significant and so

1462
00:58:09,170 --> 00:58:07,680
valuable to me

1463
00:58:12,349 --> 00:58:09,180
um and understand it while also being

1464
00:58:15,470 --> 00:58:12,359
deeply critical about the uh long-term

1465
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:15,480
repercussions of this media figure and

1466
00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:17,760
um how it has encroached on and deeply

1467
00:58:22,490 --> 00:58:19,920
deeply affected huge parts of our

1468
00:58:24,290 --> 00:58:22,500
political and social experience in this

1469
00:58:26,809 --> 00:58:24,300
country right like how can these two

1470
00:58:28,250 --> 00:58:26,819
things be at this be considered at the

1471
00:58:30,530 --> 00:58:28,260
same time

1472
00:58:32,690 --> 00:58:30,540
um and similarly like how do we talk

1473
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:32,700
about how do we talk about this subject

1474
00:58:37,549 --> 00:58:35,040
and engage with it in good faith right

1475
00:58:39,289 --> 00:58:37,559
not as cynics not as detractors not as

1476
00:58:41,270 --> 00:58:39,299
individuals denigrating the subject or

1477
00:58:43,309 --> 00:58:41,280
experiences or anything else how do we

1478
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,319
engage with this in good faith well also

1479
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:45,599
being Discerning about the ideas and

1480
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:48,480
Concepts that we legitimize right like I

1481
00:58:53,809 --> 00:58:51,839
think we do have responsibilities

1482
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,819
um I I don't want to say collectively

1483
00:58:57,289 --> 00:58:55,200
because I do think it's important to

1484
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:57,299
emphasize we're not monolithic here but

1485
00:59:01,309 --> 00:58:59,520
I I do think we we have an ins

1486
00:59:04,430 --> 00:59:01,319
responsibility and I certainly feel an

1487
00:59:07,370 --> 00:59:04,440
individual responsibility to

1488
00:59:10,970 --> 00:59:07,380
um make appropriate prioritization about

1489
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:10,980
this subject and what I mean by this is

1490
00:59:16,130 --> 00:59:12,480
to not

1491
00:59:18,010 --> 00:59:16,140
um prioritize this subject over

1492
00:59:20,450 --> 00:59:18,020
um

1493
00:59:23,450 --> 00:59:20,460
views actions

1494
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:23,460
and ideas that I otherwise find

1495
00:59:27,770 --> 00:59:26,160
abhorrent right so psychology is not a

1496
00:59:30,470 --> 00:59:27,780
trump card yet is what you're saying

1497
00:59:32,930 --> 00:59:30,480
yeah yeah or maybe maybe like Tucker

1498
00:59:34,609 --> 00:59:32,940
Carlson really sucks right like maybe

1499
00:59:36,170 --> 00:59:34,619
Tucker Carlson sucks and we shouldn't be

1500
00:59:38,630 --> 00:59:36,180
retweeting his show or whatever just

1501
00:59:39,250 --> 00:59:38,640
because Gary Nolan's on it

1502
00:59:41,569 --> 00:59:39,260
um

1503
00:59:43,010 --> 00:59:41,579
you know I don't know I it's so

1504
00:59:45,950 --> 00:59:43,020
complicated because it's a subject I

1505
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:45,960
care deeply about and and personally and

1506
00:59:50,030 --> 00:59:48,240
intellectually so invested in but also I

1507
00:59:51,349 --> 00:59:50,040
struggle with being engaged with in so

1508
00:59:54,230 --> 00:59:51,359
many different levels as well and I'm

1509
00:59:56,329 --> 00:59:54,240
with you dude it is a it is largely a

1510
00:59:58,730 --> 00:59:56,339
community of content consumption but

1511
00:59:59,690 --> 00:59:58,740
that's like basically everything yeah in

1512
01:00:02,210 --> 00:59:59,700
the world

1513
01:00:03,710 --> 01:00:02,220
um I mean my my personal approach is I

1514
01:00:04,730 --> 01:00:03,720
only really engage with other people on

1515
01:00:06,289 --> 01:00:04,740
this subject if they're either

1516
01:00:08,089 --> 01:00:06,299
experiencers and talk to me a lot about

1517
01:00:10,430 --> 01:00:08,099
their stuff cool great love to hear it

1518
01:00:12,410 --> 01:00:10,440
want to talk about it or if there are

1519
01:00:14,870 --> 01:00:12,420
similar creators

1520
01:00:16,609 --> 01:00:14,880
um or thinkers in this space I don't

1521
01:00:18,589 --> 01:00:16,619
I've generally taken the approach of

1522
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:18,599
like not engaging with the oil paloy of

1523
01:00:21,349 --> 01:00:20,160
people who just want to like blast out

1524
01:00:23,569 --> 01:00:21,359
their shitty opinions all over

1525
01:00:26,569 --> 01:00:23,579
everything like I don't

1526
01:00:30,170 --> 01:00:26,579
remember yeah like the common Folk

1527
01:00:33,650 --> 01:00:32,270
no I love the proletariat this is more

1528
01:00:35,890 --> 01:00:33,660
like the lump and this is more like the

1529
01:00:39,530 --> 01:00:35,900
lump in proletariat right

1530
01:00:40,849 --> 01:00:39,540
not not the proletariat themselves

1531
01:00:42,470 --> 01:00:40,859
um what do you think candle you've been

1532
01:00:46,130 --> 01:00:42,480
quiet for a minute

1533
01:00:49,010 --> 01:00:46,140
uh gosh what'd I think I think that's uh

1534
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:49,020
my perspective is that I want to treat

1535
01:00:57,890 --> 01:00:53,040
this kind of like uh the history of

1536
01:00:59,930 --> 01:00:57,900
natural philosophy I think Dr heineck uh

1537
01:01:01,910 --> 01:00:59,940
you know as we know he was the chief

1538
01:01:04,730 --> 01:01:01,920
consultant for the Project Blue Book for

1539
01:01:07,130 --> 01:01:04,740
the US Air Force and the chairperson of

1540
01:01:09,010 --> 01:01:07,140
Northwest University's astronomy

1541
01:01:13,549 --> 01:01:09,020
Department Professor there

1542
01:01:15,890 --> 01:01:13,559
he uh frequently cited meteorites as a

1543
01:01:18,049 --> 01:01:15,900
very important thing that we should

1544
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:18,059
learn from the discovery of meteorites

1545
01:01:24,109 --> 01:01:20,240
as a natural phenomenon

1546
01:01:27,230 --> 01:01:24,119
in 1803 there was something called the

1547
01:01:30,650 --> 01:01:27,240
legler El apostrophe aig-l-e meteor fall

1548
01:01:32,750 --> 01:01:30,660
in France where a meteor exploded in the

1549
01:01:34,670 --> 01:01:32,760
air and thousands of fragments ran down

1550
01:01:36,589 --> 01:01:34,680
that was considered the turning point

1551
01:01:39,470 --> 01:01:36,599
when the national academies of science

1552
01:01:43,089 --> 01:01:39,480
finally accepted that Stones could fall

1553
01:01:46,130 --> 01:01:43,099
from the sky even though there was no

1554
01:01:47,809 --> 01:01:46,140
sufficient plausible explanation for how

1555
01:01:49,010 --> 01:01:47,819
the stones would be in the sky they know

1556
01:01:50,329 --> 01:01:49,020
that gravity wouldn't make any sense for

1557
01:01:51,829 --> 01:01:50,339
the stones to be up there there was no

1558
01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:51,839
compelling explanation for why they

1559
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:54,000
would be up there therefore you discount

1560
01:01:59,650 --> 01:01:57,359
the claims coming mostly from people in

1561
01:02:02,870 --> 01:01:59,660
the countryside and things like that

1562
01:02:04,849 --> 01:02:02,880
now if we were going out there and

1563
01:02:07,549 --> 01:02:04,859
picking up all these accounts from the

1564
01:02:09,049 --> 01:02:07,559
you know people in the countryside

1565
01:02:10,970 --> 01:02:09,059
they would be saying that they saw

1566
01:02:13,730 --> 01:02:10,980
angels

1567
01:02:17,510 --> 01:02:13,740
they would be saying we've seen them and

1568
01:02:19,970 --> 01:02:17,520
if we as natural philosophers were

1569
01:02:21,230 --> 01:02:19,980
saying well there's some compelling uh

1570
01:02:23,329 --> 01:02:21,240
papers out of the French national

1571
01:02:25,609 --> 01:02:23,339
Academy of Sciences that suggests that

1572
01:02:28,970 --> 01:02:25,619
something called the vacuum could exist

1573
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:28,980
and maybe this is evidence for that

1574
01:02:32,930 --> 01:02:31,440
and then those people are taking us

1575
01:02:34,910 --> 01:02:32,940
being like we think you might actually

1576
01:02:36,289 --> 01:02:34,920
seen what you saw and then they're

1577
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:36,299
saying these people these people are

1578
01:02:40,549 --> 01:02:38,400
verifying though we saw angels

1579
01:02:42,470 --> 01:02:40,559
I mean what do you do with that right

1580
01:02:44,870 --> 01:02:42,480
like and then a couple years later it's

1581
01:02:46,190 --> 01:02:44,880
like okay they're actually all these you

1582
01:02:48,650 --> 01:02:46,200
know thousands or whatever people

1583
01:02:50,930 --> 01:02:48,660
actually saw these things and uh you

1584
01:02:52,190 --> 01:02:50,940
know there's no satisfaction for those

1585
01:02:54,289 --> 01:02:52,200
people and then they're still insisting

1586
01:02:56,510 --> 01:02:54,299
with this all angels I imagine I don't

1587
01:02:58,430 --> 01:02:56,520
think that the

1588
01:02:59,750 --> 01:02:58,440
decision of the night that's actually an

1589
01:03:02,750 --> 01:02:59,760
interesting disclosure like the national

1590
01:03:06,130 --> 01:03:02,760
academies of Science in 1803 come out

1591
01:03:09,289 --> 01:03:06,140
and say oh the uh the Ethereal beings

1592
01:03:13,370 --> 01:03:09,299
the pure light beings are real

1593
01:03:16,250 --> 01:03:13,380
oh yeah the extraterrestrials are real

1594
01:03:17,930 --> 01:03:16,260
they aren't uh living but uh we we now

1595
01:03:21,470 --> 01:03:17,940
believe that those things are being seen

1596
01:03:23,990 --> 01:03:21,480
I mean that's a huge pivot and I think

1597
01:03:25,970 --> 01:03:24,000
high neck was right that there's a

1598
01:03:29,030 --> 01:03:25,980
lesson that can be drawn there because

1599
01:03:30,410 --> 01:03:29,040
if we only take the observations there's

1600
01:04:19,490 --> 01:03:30,420
a

1601
01:04:21,410 --> 01:04:19,500
things people just right you know they

1602
01:04:23,690 --> 01:04:21,420
exist but we don't have that exact thing

1603
01:04:25,130 --> 01:04:23,700
but what even when we have that thing we

1604
01:04:28,069 --> 01:04:25,140
already have papers that were published

1605
01:04:30,049 --> 01:04:28,079
by valet uh Dr valet and like the uh I

1606
01:04:32,690 --> 01:04:30,059
think it was what 2003 with Dr Eric

1607
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:32,700
Davis where they already say

1608
01:04:38,990 --> 01:04:35,760
we think that the UFOs are mimicking

1609
01:04:40,849 --> 01:04:39,000
real natural phenomenon and so there is

1610
01:04:42,650 --> 01:04:40,859
always going to be this uh sort of

1611
01:04:44,569 --> 01:04:42,660
pushing forward of the narrative and

1612
01:04:46,190 --> 01:04:44,579
it's going to escape us uh no matter

1613
01:04:48,170 --> 01:04:46,200
what we do so it's an interesting point

1614
01:04:50,030 --> 01:04:48,180
I think there's value in

1615
01:04:52,190 --> 01:04:50,040
the traditional natural philosophy

1616
01:04:54,410 --> 01:04:52,200
skeptical approach skepticism has always

1617
01:04:57,849 --> 01:04:54,420
traditionally been completely aligned

1618
01:05:00,650 --> 01:04:57,859
with naturalization trying to explain

1619
01:05:04,190 --> 01:05:00,660
observations through

1620
01:05:05,450 --> 01:05:04,200
um yeah not natural means and uh you

1621
01:05:07,270 --> 01:05:05,460
know I think that there is value in

1622
01:05:09,890 --> 01:05:07,280
doing that with the subject

1623
01:05:11,030 --> 01:05:09,900
well Nick what about you uh do you think

1624
01:05:12,589 --> 01:05:11,040
that we're doing more harm than good

1625
01:05:14,109 --> 01:05:12,599
what's your thought

1626
01:05:16,250 --> 01:05:14,119
I don't

1627
01:05:20,210 --> 01:05:16,260
I'm not going to say that we're harming

1628
01:05:25,609 --> 01:05:22,789
um I don't know I don't I don't know

1629
01:05:28,130 --> 01:05:25,619
I don't see youthology or the UFO

1630
01:05:30,890 --> 01:05:28,140
Community changing ever

1631
01:05:32,750 --> 01:05:30,900
um there's always going to be things in

1632
01:05:36,109 --> 01:05:32,760
the air that we can't see because like I

1633
01:05:37,010 --> 01:05:36,119
said they're fleeting and Out Of Reach

1634
01:05:40,190 --> 01:05:37,020
um

1635
01:05:41,569 --> 01:05:40,200
I don't think any you know authority

1636
01:05:42,890 --> 01:05:41,579
figure coming out and saying no these

1637
01:05:45,410 --> 01:05:42,900
are all Mister identifications it's

1638
01:05:47,690 --> 01:05:45,420
going to do any good

1639
01:05:51,230 --> 01:05:47,700
um and while the like

1640
01:05:53,630 --> 01:05:51,240
the finer details in the uh the kind of

1641
01:05:55,730 --> 01:05:53,640
qualities and features of the UFOs might

1642
01:05:59,809 --> 01:05:55,740
change with Society like we're seeing it

1643
01:06:05,270 --> 01:06:02,150
uh I'm trying to think of another word

1644
01:06:07,789 --> 01:06:05,280
besides we but it's becoming more we in

1645
01:06:10,309 --> 01:06:07,799
my opinion the kind of yeah like

1646
01:06:12,770 --> 01:06:10,319
subjective basically so actually yeah

1647
01:06:16,130 --> 01:06:12,780
here's here's an example UFOs haunting

1648
01:06:18,109 --> 01:06:16,140
people I think is kind of a well

1649
01:06:20,150 --> 01:06:18,119
no there was a bit of that during the

1650
01:06:21,710 --> 01:06:20,160
abduction period of the 80s and 90s

1651
01:06:23,030 --> 01:06:21,720
there was like repeat abductors and

1652
01:06:24,589 --> 01:06:23,040
family lines and Bloodlines being

1653
01:06:27,289 --> 01:06:24,599
abducted and stuff like that but I'm

1654
01:06:29,870 --> 01:06:27,299
talking about more you know the uh the

1655
01:06:33,770 --> 01:06:29,880
space Poltergeist kind of aspect of it

1656
01:06:35,870 --> 01:06:33,780
the curse of them yeah so yeah so

1657
01:06:37,730 --> 01:06:35,880
so I see I see little changes like that

1658
01:06:39,230 --> 01:06:37,740
kind of like how you know right after

1659
01:06:41,089 --> 01:06:39,240
Sputnik we started seeing them

1660
01:06:42,770 --> 01:06:41,099
interfering with our cars and before

1661
01:06:45,710 --> 01:06:42,780
those like sensationalist newspaper

1662
01:06:48,349 --> 01:06:45,720
articles about the foreign Army's rays

1663
01:06:51,410 --> 01:06:48,359
that stop tanks and stuff like that so I

1664
01:06:54,349 --> 01:06:51,420
think syndrome will always kind of like

1665
01:06:56,510 --> 01:06:54,359
put our put our ideas of modernity on

1666
01:06:59,029 --> 01:06:56,520
these things near modernity

1667
01:07:01,069 --> 01:06:59,039
um but otherwise no it'll always always

1668
01:07:03,230 --> 01:07:01,079
be the same I think there will always be

1669
01:07:05,690 --> 01:07:03,240
new figures to take in that that

1670
01:07:07,849 --> 01:07:05,700
Authority vacuum I think people always

1671
01:07:11,990 --> 01:07:07,859
misidentify things

1672
01:07:13,789 --> 01:07:12,000
and we're the the whole story of nhi

1673
01:07:15,770 --> 01:07:13,799
coming in crafts and visiting us and

1674
01:07:17,809 --> 01:07:15,780
abducting us or observing us and the

1675
01:07:20,510 --> 01:07:17,819
government knowing is so ingrained in

1676
01:07:22,609 --> 01:07:20,520
our culture it's I I tell you guys this

1677
01:07:25,630 --> 01:07:22,619
all the time I watch uh old compilations

1678
01:07:29,210 --> 01:07:25,640
of commercials from like the 80s and 90s

1679
01:07:31,130 --> 01:07:29,220
you are so cool I watch it on this CR2

1680
01:07:33,710 --> 01:07:31,140
yeah I have a Roku attached to it that I

1681
01:07:35,270 --> 01:07:33,720
run through oh my God but anyway you are

1682
01:07:37,809 --> 01:07:35,280
you are such a type of guy it's

1683
01:07:41,210 --> 01:07:37,819
incredible I love it

1684
01:07:43,970 --> 01:07:41,220
the best time yeah the best type of guy

1685
01:07:46,849 --> 01:07:43,980
to be clear but my point in bringing

1686
01:07:47,870 --> 01:07:46,859
that up is uh that I in every

1687
01:07:50,750 --> 01:07:47,880
compilation there's at least one

1688
01:07:53,210 --> 01:07:50,760
commercial that features a flying saucer

1689
01:07:54,950 --> 01:07:53,220
with aliens coming out of it

1690
01:07:56,450 --> 01:07:54,960
every single one car commercials have

1691
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:56,460
done this cereal commercials everything

1692
01:08:02,150 --> 01:07:58,799
it's part of our culture TV shows TV

1693
01:08:04,910 --> 01:08:02,160
episodes for disclosure Nick right it's

1694
01:08:05,990 --> 01:08:04,920
that slow drip but like I said I don't I

1695
01:08:08,450 --> 01:08:06,000
don't think that that's true because

1696
01:08:11,329 --> 01:08:08,460
who's doing that who's who's this cabal

1697
01:08:16,430 --> 01:08:14,390
dictating what's in commercials but also

1698
01:08:19,249 --> 01:08:16,440
like works on the crash team retrieval

1699
01:08:20,749 --> 01:08:19,259
unit at the government like

1700
01:08:22,309 --> 01:08:20,759
that doesn't make sense that would

1701
01:08:24,650 --> 01:08:22,319
involve so many people actually already

1702
01:08:28,070 --> 01:08:24,660
knowing that essentially disclosure

1703
01:08:30,349 --> 01:08:28,080
already happened yeah well I didn't uh

1704
01:08:33,229 --> 01:08:30,359
our friend well our friend uh didn't uh

1705
01:08:35,150 --> 01:08:33,239
Mr Elizondo say that disclosures already

1706
01:08:37,610 --> 01:08:35,160
happened like didn't you say something

1707
01:08:39,470 --> 01:08:37,620
like that I keep a question of like what

1708
01:08:40,729 --> 01:08:39,480
even constitutes disclosure right is it

1709
01:08:42,590 --> 01:08:40,739
just acknowledgment that things happen

1710
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:42,600
that we don't know about or can identify

1711
01:08:46,249 --> 01:08:44,640
them yes it's definitely happened sure

1712
01:08:48,950 --> 01:08:46,259
right

1713
01:08:50,269 --> 01:08:48,960
I just uh yeah that's the other thing

1714
01:08:53,510 --> 01:08:50,279
and I think I've brought this up in

1715
01:08:55,849 --> 01:08:53,520
maybe every episode but the um

1716
01:08:57,650 --> 01:08:55,859
the fuzzy language that we all we all

1717
01:09:00,110 --> 01:08:57,660
use like no one's on the same page with

1718
01:09:02,209 --> 01:09:00,120
any of this stuff like a definition of

1719
01:09:05,329 --> 01:09:02,219
disclosure or what people think of UFOs

1720
01:09:07,370 --> 01:09:05,339
or what what anyone thinks UFOs are real

1721
01:09:08,689 --> 01:09:07,380
means you know you can get a million

1722
01:09:10,910 --> 01:09:08,699
different interpretations out of that

1723
01:09:13,249 --> 01:09:10,920
phrase and some people think that yeah

1724
01:09:15,349 --> 01:09:13,259
that is you know basically disclosure

1725
01:09:17,870 --> 01:09:15,359
when other people realize like

1726
01:09:19,970 --> 01:09:17,880
well yeah duh you know like yeah the

1727
01:09:22,990 --> 01:09:19,980
disclosure only happens when they have

1728
01:09:25,970 --> 01:09:23,000
explicitly disclosed these five things

1729
01:09:28,610 --> 01:09:25,980
right ah here we go

1730
01:09:29,990 --> 01:09:28,620
this sounds like some vague wishy-washy

1731
01:09:34,189 --> 01:09:30,000
[\h__\h] that doesn't actually mean

1732
01:09:38,809 --> 01:09:36,950
yeah yeah disclosures already happen but

1733
01:09:40,249 --> 01:09:38,819
it's also coming and it's also it's a

1734
01:09:41,870 --> 01:09:40,259
marathon and not a race and we're

1735
01:09:43,910 --> 01:09:41,880
nowhere near it and we're in the fifth

1736
01:09:45,349 --> 01:09:43,920
gear and we can only asymptotically

1737
01:09:48,829 --> 01:09:45,359
approach it but kind of are actually

1738
01:09:50,450 --> 01:09:48,839
interested right we're all Sisyphus I

1739
01:09:51,650 --> 01:09:50,460
guess

1740
01:09:54,770 --> 01:09:51,660
um yeah

1741
01:09:56,810 --> 01:09:54,780
I don't know I feel like

1742
01:09:59,090 --> 01:09:56,820
I don't think there's anything left in

1743
01:10:00,530 --> 01:09:59,100
my brain to say about UFOs anymore I

1744
01:10:01,850 --> 01:10:00,540
think I've spit it all out tonight

1745
01:10:04,790 --> 01:10:01,860
finally

1746
01:10:06,590 --> 01:10:04,800
I love it Nick yeah and this is good

1747
01:10:07,970 --> 01:10:06,600
because like we've been I mean we've

1748
01:10:10,070 --> 01:10:07,980
sort of been talking about broadening

1749
01:10:12,590 --> 01:10:10,080
The Horizon of the show right like

1750
01:10:14,750 --> 01:10:12,600
branching off of UFOs getting more into

1751
01:10:17,090 --> 01:10:14,760
like the weird study space I mean very

1752
01:10:19,310 --> 01:10:17,100
candidly just personally

1753
01:10:20,870 --> 01:10:19,320
um I think weird studies people are

1754
01:10:22,610 --> 01:10:20,880
maybe a bit more well-adjusted and less

1755
01:10:25,130 --> 01:10:22,620
psychotic than a lot of the UFO people

1756
01:10:26,689 --> 01:10:25,140
I've met that sounds nice yeah that

1757
01:10:28,669 --> 01:10:26,699
sounds really nice I love engaging with

1758
01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:28,679
like relatively normal well-socialized

1759
01:10:31,910 --> 01:10:30,000
humans

1760
01:10:34,189 --> 01:10:31,920
um but also

1761
01:10:36,290 --> 01:10:34,199
um I mean as I've said time and time

1762
01:10:38,450 --> 01:10:36,300
again like my approach to this subject

1763
01:10:41,750 --> 01:10:38,460
is largely metaphysical spiritual

1764
01:10:43,450 --> 01:10:41,760
immersion psychedelic Etc and like I

1765
01:10:47,390 --> 01:10:43,460
would love to talk more about

1766
01:10:51,649 --> 01:10:47,400
parapsychology and SCI phenomena and uh

1767
01:10:57,410 --> 01:10:53,810
um you know I I finally I can't believe

1768
01:11:00,290 --> 01:10:57,420
J shank isn't here like that I swear

1769
01:11:02,390 --> 01:11:00,300
oh he uh he uh he got crappy sleep last

1770
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:02,400
night so he took a rain check but he'll

1771
01:11:06,649 --> 01:11:04,560
be back soon he's like basically

1772
01:11:09,110 --> 01:11:06,659
almost like an honorary ins guy at this

1773
01:11:10,669 --> 01:11:09,120
point what about uh Jack or Vanessa did

1774
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:10,679
either of them show up both of them had

1775
01:11:13,930 --> 01:11:12,480
plans

1776
01:11:17,030 --> 01:11:13,940
I know

1777
01:11:18,709 --> 01:11:17,040
day night right on Wednesday night at 9

1778
01:11:21,169 --> 01:11:18,719
00 PM Eastern I know incredible we'll

1779
01:11:23,090 --> 01:11:21,179
have them all back on soon if they're up

1780
01:11:25,250 --> 01:11:23,100
against some kind of Sky watching uh

1781
01:11:28,490 --> 01:11:25,260
live stream I believe that no that

1782
01:11:30,950 --> 01:11:28,500
happens right after us that's the woofer

1783
01:11:32,450 --> 01:11:30,960
Wednesday with the weird studies guys

1784
01:11:33,950 --> 01:11:32,460
um we're kind of like the the foreplay

1785
01:11:35,810 --> 01:11:33,960
for that I think you basically go out

1786
01:11:37,490 --> 01:11:35,820
and try to do ce5 with like the other

1787
01:11:38,110 --> 01:11:37,500
podcast nerds

1788
01:11:44,930 --> 01:11:38,120
um

1789
01:11:47,750 --> 01:11:44,940
I was I was up against not having

1790
01:11:50,090 --> 01:11:47,760
Internet so

1791
01:11:52,070 --> 01:11:50,100
um she actually pretty much ruled

1792
01:11:54,290 --> 01:11:52,080
um anyway I digress so I was talking

1793
01:11:56,570 --> 01:11:54,300
about Jay because Jay just finished the

1794
01:11:59,149 --> 01:11:56,580
trickster in the Paranormal by uh

1795
01:12:01,370 --> 01:11:59,159
Gregory Hansen people have not read

1796
01:12:04,010 --> 01:12:01,380
those definitely read it I'm working on

1797
01:12:05,689 --> 01:12:04,020
it right now so first of all it is like

1798
01:12:07,910 --> 01:12:05,699
I had no idea how dense it was it's

1799
01:12:09,950 --> 01:12:07,920
basically like a 500 page academic paper

1800
01:12:12,050 --> 01:12:09,960
very dense very good I feel like I'm

1801
01:12:14,149 --> 01:12:12,060
like making notes on every page

1802
01:12:17,810 --> 01:12:14,159
um but like he he proposes this idea

1803
01:12:25,130 --> 01:12:19,090
um

1804
01:12:28,010 --> 01:12:25,140
basically as the presence and

1805
01:12:30,290 --> 01:12:28,020
um daily involvement with structures

1806
01:12:31,970 --> 01:12:30,300
exist in Modern Life like as we

1807
01:12:34,850 --> 01:12:31,980
increasingly have like well-defined

1808
01:12:37,850 --> 01:12:34,860
systems that run our lives everything

1809
01:12:39,709 --> 01:12:37,860
from like traffic to

1810
01:12:41,450 --> 01:12:39,719
um how we do our work to like the

1811
01:12:43,970 --> 01:12:41,460
predictability of our home environments

1812
01:12:48,350 --> 01:12:43,980
like this kind of like these structures

1813
01:12:50,570 --> 01:12:48,360
and systems kind of crowd out the

1814
01:12:54,709 --> 01:12:50,580
opportunity to have like these liminal

1815
01:12:56,750 --> 01:12:54,719
or strange experiences and he sees the

1816
01:12:58,910 --> 01:12:56,760
liminal or strange experiences and he

1817
01:13:01,070 --> 01:12:58,920
sort of treats like the range of

1818
01:13:04,250 --> 01:13:01,080
paranormal or Supernatural things all

1819
01:13:06,890 --> 01:13:04,260
sort of as a collective artifact of like

1820
01:13:09,830 --> 01:13:06,900
one phenomena right UFOs telekinesis

1821
01:13:12,229 --> 01:13:09,840
Clairvoyance whatever

1822
01:13:14,090 --> 01:13:12,239
um and basically that like as we

1823
01:13:16,490 --> 01:13:14,100
converge towards this increasingly

1824
01:13:20,030 --> 01:13:16,500
structured experience and culture and

1825
01:13:23,510 --> 01:13:20,040
society that like again it marginalizes

1826
01:13:25,370 --> 01:13:23,520
and removes these experiences uh from

1827
01:13:28,729 --> 01:13:25,380
daily life like they become much more

1828
01:13:30,530 --> 01:13:28,739
marginal but that as we see like as we

1829
01:13:33,229 --> 01:13:30,540
see the breakdown of these structures

1830
01:13:35,030 --> 01:13:33,239
even in modern society the uh one of the

1831
01:13:37,010 --> 01:13:35,040
examples he draws upon is the collapse

1832
01:13:38,810 --> 01:13:37,020
of the Soviet Union and the subsequent

1833
01:13:40,669 --> 01:13:38,820
rise and popular interests in the

1834
01:13:43,250 --> 01:13:40,679
Paranormal and psychics and mediumship

1835
01:13:45,830 --> 01:13:43,260
and things like that like basically as

1836
01:13:48,950 --> 01:13:45,840
these structures Decay it increasingly

1837
01:13:51,950 --> 01:13:48,960
opens space for experiences and

1838
01:13:54,590 --> 01:13:51,960
perceptions and beliefs that

1839
01:13:57,350 --> 01:13:54,600
um are uh I don't want to say logically

1840
01:13:59,149 --> 01:13:57,360
inconsistent but do not cohere to the

1841
01:14:01,550 --> 01:13:59,159
structures of daily life

1842
01:14:03,770 --> 01:14:01,560
I see yeah yeah that's an interesting

1843
01:14:05,510 --> 01:14:03,780
fact well that that's a really

1844
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:05,520
interesting with respect to the Soviet

1845
01:14:11,590 --> 01:14:08,640
Union especially because philosophically

1846
01:14:15,050 --> 01:14:11,600
they were uh you know all purely

1847
01:14:18,649 --> 01:14:15,060
atheistic uh from uh their enculturation

1848
01:14:20,689 --> 01:14:18,659
uh hardcore materialists uh you know

1849
01:14:24,050 --> 01:14:20,699
physicalists and

1850
01:14:26,390 --> 01:14:24,060
I understand that that's right sorry go

1851
01:14:28,310 --> 01:14:26,400
on I was gonna say I'm I'm messaging you

1852
01:14:31,189 --> 01:14:28,320
guys in the private chat an article by

1853
01:14:33,890 --> 01:14:31,199
Hannah gay called psychic healing at the

1854
01:14:37,189 --> 01:14:33,900
end of History which is all about the

1855
01:14:39,669 --> 01:14:37,199
post-soviet obsession with like psychics

1856
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:39,679
on television after the club

1857
01:14:43,490 --> 01:14:41,760
post it there in case you want to post

1858
01:14:45,709 --> 01:14:43,500
it in the comments anyway sorry Kimball

1859
01:14:48,590 --> 01:14:45,719
no yeah that's a vowel point and and

1860
01:14:50,330 --> 01:14:48,600
there was a dramatic interest or extreme

1861
01:14:52,430 --> 01:14:50,340
interest in the Soviet Union related to

1862
01:14:54,110 --> 01:14:52,440
all of these kinds of phenomena and they

1863
01:14:56,330 --> 01:14:54,120
it I mean it's quite interesting because

1864
01:15:00,110 --> 01:14:56,340
obviously the Soviet Union was a

1865
01:15:02,030 --> 01:15:00,120
criminal evil empire but uh they were

1866
01:15:04,610 --> 01:15:02,040
actually studying these things uh taking

1867
01:15:05,810 --> 01:15:04,620
them more seriously in some ways and uh

1868
01:15:08,270 --> 01:15:05,820
according to our own Declassified

1869
01:15:10,850 --> 01:15:08,280
documents from our governments we

1870
01:15:11,990 --> 01:15:10,860
see that our intelligence agencies were

1871
01:15:13,850 --> 01:15:12,000
worried about playing catch up on some

1872
01:15:15,770 --> 01:15:13,860
of these things so for example a psychic

1873
01:15:17,270 --> 01:15:15,780
phenomena the Soviets were investigating

1874
01:15:19,310 --> 01:15:17,280
it before the CIA the CIA was trying to

1875
01:15:20,630 --> 01:15:19,320
catch up to the Soviets uh because they

1876
01:15:22,070 --> 01:15:20,640
were worried that the Soviets were onto

1877
01:15:23,689 --> 01:15:22,080
something the Soviets were studying it

1878
01:15:25,130 --> 01:15:23,699
from a physicalist materialist

1879
01:15:26,990 --> 01:15:25,140
perspective they were studying it from

1880
01:15:29,630 --> 01:15:27,000
the perspective of like electromagnetism

1881
01:15:32,270 --> 01:15:29,640
and things like that they were trying to

1882
01:15:34,729 --> 01:15:32,280
determine them from a scientific

1883
01:15:37,729 --> 01:15:34,739
perspective if they were real or not and

1884
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:37,739
you know that also extends into UFOs

1885
01:15:43,010 --> 01:15:40,080
there are massive databases of

1886
01:15:45,590 --> 01:15:43,020
universities in the Soviet former Soviet

1887
01:15:47,390 --> 01:15:45,600
Union uh about all lightning I like it's

1888
01:15:49,370 --> 01:15:47,400
like one of them contains like 10 000

1889
01:15:52,130 --> 01:15:49,380
reports and when you go through those

1890
01:15:55,189 --> 01:15:52,140
reports they are literally identical to

1891
01:15:56,990 --> 01:15:55,199
UFO reports except for the

1892
01:15:58,910 --> 01:15:57,000
interpretation

1893
01:16:02,830 --> 01:15:58,920
in the Soviet Union you have physics

1894
01:16:05,209 --> 01:16:02,840
papers describing uh fluid dynamics

1895
01:16:08,149 --> 01:16:05,219
doing the math showing after an

1896
01:16:10,610 --> 01:16:08,159
observation how the object is exactly

1897
01:16:12,290 --> 01:16:10,620
behaving how you can cause an object to

1898
01:16:15,830 --> 01:16:12,300
behave under the influence of magnetic

1899
01:16:18,410 --> 01:16:15,840
forces and so you know there is this

1900
01:16:21,410 --> 01:16:18,420
natural physical approach that was

1901
01:16:22,970 --> 01:16:21,420
occurring there and then the Western

1902
01:16:24,770 --> 01:16:22,980
sounds a little bit I mean it is

1903
01:16:26,209 --> 01:16:24,780
conspiratorial but the Declassified

1904
01:16:28,130 --> 01:16:26,219
documents that we have especially the

1905
01:16:30,530 --> 01:16:28,140
one from the United Kingdom from 2000

1906
01:16:32,930 --> 01:16:30,540
where they're getting into it they talk

1907
01:16:34,970 --> 01:16:32,940
specifically we're quite concerned that

1908
01:16:36,649 --> 01:16:34,980
the Soviet Union is ahead of us on the

1909
01:16:38,510 --> 01:16:36,659
study of ball lightning we are certain

1910
01:16:40,550 --> 01:16:38,520
that UFOs exist this is the United

1911
01:16:42,410 --> 01:16:40,560
Kingdom's Military Intelligence where

1912
01:16:44,209 --> 01:16:42,420
certain UFOs exist we are almost certain

1913
01:16:47,090 --> 01:16:44,219
they are natural atmospheric phenomena

1914
01:16:48,470 --> 01:16:47,100
we need to study these things because we

1915
01:16:49,850 --> 01:16:48,480
are worried that due to stigma

1916
01:16:51,229 --> 01:16:49,860
associated with UFOs we have not been

1917
01:16:53,149 --> 01:16:51,239
looking at them closely enough and we

1918
01:16:54,410 --> 01:16:53,159
think there's a variety of technological

1919
01:16:56,450 --> 01:16:54,420
advancements that can be achieved by

1920
01:16:57,649 --> 01:16:56,460
understanding while lightning better so

1921
01:16:59,209 --> 01:16:57,659
that you know this is their document

1922
01:17:00,470 --> 01:16:59,219
that wrote it out and they could be

1923
01:17:03,470 --> 01:17:00,480
wrong about that that's just an

1924
01:17:06,110 --> 01:17:03,480
interpretation as well but you see that

1925
01:17:08,390 --> 01:17:06,120
there was this hardcore atheist

1926
01:17:10,550 --> 01:17:08,400
materialist philosophy in the Soviet

1927
01:17:13,130 --> 01:17:10,560
Union that led to them actually trying

1928
01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:13,140
to naturalize these phenomena and you

1929
01:17:17,330 --> 01:17:15,840
see in the historical uh documentary

1930
01:17:19,310 --> 01:17:17,340
record that we have in our national

1931
01:17:20,810 --> 01:17:19,320
archives that our intelligence agencies

1932
01:17:23,810 --> 01:17:20,820
were consistently trying to play

1933
01:17:25,430 --> 01:17:23,820
catch-up it's interesting that they

1934
01:17:27,830 --> 01:17:25,440
still kind of considered that there

1935
01:17:30,410 --> 01:17:27,840
would be a mysterious explanation for

1936
01:17:32,870 --> 01:17:30,420
like a representative number of these

1937
01:17:36,950 --> 01:17:32,880
cases rather than just people

1938
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:36,960
uh misidentifying things yes the common

1939
01:17:41,270 --> 01:17:39,840
factor but yeah I just want to validate

1940
01:17:43,490 --> 01:17:41,280
what you're saying Nick like it's

1941
01:17:45,470 --> 01:17:43,500
extremely important to remember uh Steve

1942
01:17:47,870 --> 01:17:45,480
long said it in the chat earlier that

1943
01:17:50,510 --> 01:17:47,880
most of the time when there's something

1944
01:17:52,910 --> 01:17:50,520
extraordinary being claimed to exist it

1945
01:17:55,370 --> 01:17:52,920
almost always is not ultimately found to

1946
01:17:58,490 --> 01:17:55,380
be real and so we can't assume that you

1947
01:18:00,590 --> 01:17:58,500
know extraordinary uh claims result in

1948
01:18:03,189 --> 01:18:00,600
extraordinary realities you know

1949
01:18:05,510 --> 01:18:03,199
whatever and messing up the quote

1950
01:18:07,810 --> 01:18:05,520
that with with

1951
01:18:11,510 --> 01:18:07,820
you know convincing evidence from with

1952
01:18:12,890 --> 01:18:11,520
yes evidence exactly you know what I

1953
01:18:15,110 --> 01:18:12,900
mean I'm not against

1954
01:18:17,450 --> 01:18:15,120
these extraordinary claims but it's

1955
01:18:18,649 --> 01:18:17,460
going to take a bit for me to believe it

1956
01:18:21,610 --> 01:18:18,659
other than

1957
01:18:24,709 --> 01:18:21,620
you know kind of an intuitional belief

1958
01:18:26,930 --> 01:18:24,719
based on just the culture I was raised

1959
01:18:29,149 --> 01:18:26,940
in well and I said this last week but uh

1960
01:18:31,610 --> 01:18:29,159
Occam's razor that was created by

1961
01:18:34,490 --> 01:18:31,620
William avakum a friar in the 14th

1962
01:18:36,890 --> 01:18:34,500
century who created it to argue that

1963
01:18:38,870 --> 01:18:36,900
Miracles probably exist it's the

1964
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:38,880
simplest explanation for the fact that

1965
01:18:43,669 --> 01:18:41,760
you're having common experiences being

1966
01:18:45,709 --> 01:18:43,679
reported across time and place of

1967
01:18:47,030 --> 01:18:45,719
similar uh things and so it's like

1968
01:18:48,649 --> 01:18:47,040
because there's so many people reporting

1969
01:18:51,050 --> 01:18:48,659
something similar

1970
01:18:52,970 --> 01:18:51,060
uh you know discreetly then it's

1971
01:18:55,370 --> 01:18:52,980
reasonable to infer that it's actually

1972
01:18:56,870 --> 01:18:55,380
real and that that's what Occam's razor

1973
01:18:59,750 --> 01:18:56,880
originally was it's the Miracles are

1974
01:19:01,669 --> 01:18:59,760
real uh we know now that's not verified

1975
01:19:03,169 --> 01:19:01,679
that's not supported by the evidence in

1976
01:19:05,090 --> 01:19:03,179
a way you can do the Virgin Mary as well

1977
01:19:08,270 --> 01:19:05,100
you know hundreds upon hundreds of uh

1978
01:19:11,030 --> 01:19:08,280
very intensely investigated uh reports

1979
01:19:12,590 --> 01:19:11,040
by the Catholic church over uh centuries

1980
01:19:14,090 --> 01:19:12,600
and uh you know we don't have evidence

1981
01:19:16,010 --> 01:19:14,100
for that either so you're you're

1982
01:19:18,350 --> 01:19:16,020
absolutely a right neck like there

1983
01:19:20,330 --> 01:19:18,360
there's a good prospect that there isn't

1984
01:19:22,250 --> 01:19:20,340
an actual real thing at the heart of

1985
01:19:25,189 --> 01:19:22,260
many of these reports or any of them it

1986
01:19:29,110 --> 01:19:25,199
brings me back to why we have a ufology

1987
01:19:31,570 --> 01:19:29,120
and why we don't have a lost psychology

1988
01:19:34,130 --> 01:19:31,580
and I think

1989
01:19:36,709 --> 01:19:34,140
and the sports model is expensiveness

1990
01:19:38,570 --> 01:19:36,719
well because we can eventually find the

1991
01:19:40,910 --> 01:19:38,580
socks and then hold them again

1992
01:19:43,189 --> 01:19:40,920
you know we can't catch a UFO it's gone

1993
01:19:46,189 --> 01:19:43,199
it's already in the past we just have

1994
01:19:49,250 --> 01:19:46,199
our memory of it and that's what we want

1995
01:19:51,590 --> 01:19:49,260
to give to science and politicians to

1996
01:19:55,130 --> 01:19:51,600
hold up and validate for us as

1997
01:19:58,370 --> 01:19:55,140
everybody's just stories and memories oh

1998
01:20:00,590 --> 01:19:58,380
Nick I'm becoming a cynical sorry this

1999
01:20:01,790 --> 01:20:00,600
doesn't seem I mean I guess there's a

2000
01:20:03,350 --> 01:20:01,800
flavor of this that could be very

2001
01:20:06,709 --> 01:20:03,360
cynical but none of those pings is

2002
01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:06,719
deeply cynical to me I mean why because

2003
01:20:10,130 --> 01:20:08,400
well no

2004
01:20:12,290 --> 01:20:10,140
now

2005
01:20:14,090 --> 01:20:12,300
um but because I think when particularly

2006
01:20:20,149 --> 01:20:14,100
when people

2007
01:20:22,370 --> 01:20:20,159
break apart their ontologies and

2008
01:20:24,350 --> 01:20:22,380
especially when they're isolated in this

2009
01:20:27,350 --> 01:20:24,360
experience which is very common because

2010
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:27,360
we have such poor cultural narratives

2011
01:20:33,350 --> 01:20:29,760
for interpreting and metabolizing these

2012
01:20:36,350 --> 01:20:33,360
kinds of things whether uh UFOs or

2013
01:20:38,330 --> 01:20:36,360
Bigfoot or emergence or whatever these

2014
01:20:40,490 --> 01:20:38,340
are deeply isolating and traumatizing

2015
01:20:42,410 --> 01:20:40,500
events for many many people

2016
01:20:45,290 --> 01:20:42,420
um and the idea that they can be seen

2017
01:20:47,330 --> 01:20:45,300
and recognized and validated uh by

2018
01:20:48,950 --> 01:20:47,340
external powers of authority right

2019
01:20:50,990 --> 01:20:48,960
whether it's friends or family or

2020
01:20:52,790 --> 01:20:51,000
doctors or politicians or whatever like

2021
01:20:55,189 --> 01:20:52,800
this is this is

2022
01:20:57,530 --> 01:20:55,199
um in many respects deeply important for

2023
01:20:59,090 --> 01:20:57,540
sort of the individual like I don't want

2024
01:21:00,590 --> 01:20:59,100
to say the healing process but like how

2025
01:21:02,990 --> 01:21:00,600
we metabolize and integrate these

2026
01:21:05,630 --> 01:21:03,000
experiences like being heard and being

2027
01:21:07,550 --> 01:21:05,640
witnessed is deeply powerful for people

2028
01:21:11,209 --> 01:21:07,560
especially when they feel very isolated

2029
01:21:16,189 --> 01:21:11,219
after something that is extraordinary

2030
01:21:21,130 --> 01:21:17,450
we got like

2031
01:21:22,669 --> 01:21:21,140
nine minutes for a final thought

2032
01:21:25,010 --> 01:21:22,679
well

2033
01:21:27,709 --> 01:21:25,020
um I mean what Lee was just saying I can

2034
01:21:29,750 --> 01:21:27,719
relate to in some ways I've talked here

2035
01:21:32,390 --> 01:21:29,760
and there about it but um I sometimes

2036
01:21:34,850 --> 01:21:32,400
have hypnopic uh sleep hallucinations

2037
01:21:37,990 --> 01:21:34,860
it's when you wake up and for five to

2038
01:21:40,310 --> 01:21:38,000
ten seconds the sleeping uh

2039
01:21:42,229 --> 01:21:40,320
hallucinatory state does not completely

2040
01:21:44,270 --> 01:21:42,239
shut off it's just a slight uh

2041
01:21:46,610 --> 01:21:44,280
disconnect they're usually uh associated

2042
01:21:49,310 --> 01:21:46,620
with a stressful experience during the

2043
01:21:52,070 --> 01:21:49,320
day or whatever but uh you know my first

2044
01:21:53,630 --> 01:21:52,080
experience where I acknowledge that or I

2045
01:21:55,669 --> 01:21:53,640
recognize that something weird was

2046
01:21:58,370 --> 01:21:55,679
happening I was like 13 14 I woke up and

2047
01:22:00,530 --> 01:21:58,380
I saw I mean it's such a classic one but

2048
01:22:02,870 --> 01:22:00,540
like what looked like a like a metallic

2049
01:22:04,910 --> 01:22:02,880
sphere thing floating in my bedroom when

2050
01:22:06,530 --> 01:22:04,920
I woke up I thought it was like a robot

2051
01:22:07,729 --> 01:22:06,540
or something I was like I was like

2052
01:22:09,830 --> 01:22:07,739
really into Star Wars I was like what

2053
01:22:12,550 --> 01:22:09,840
the heck that looks like those torture

2054
01:22:14,990 --> 01:22:12,560
Droid from Star Wars what oh yeah yeah

2055
01:22:17,209 --> 01:22:15,000
right yes yes it looked kind of like

2056
01:22:20,149 --> 01:22:17,219
that without the projections or anything

2057
01:22:23,030 --> 01:22:20,159
but um you know the internet existed I

2058
01:22:24,830 --> 01:22:23,040
was I'm young enough that I got up and I

2059
01:22:28,189 --> 01:22:24,840
straight up I went straight to Google

2060
01:22:30,709 --> 01:22:28,199
and just typed in what I experienced and

2061
01:22:33,050 --> 01:22:30,719
then I immediately found a sufficient

2062
01:22:34,070 --> 01:22:33,060
explanation but I also look back on it

2063
01:22:36,830 --> 01:22:34,080
and I think

2064
01:22:38,510 --> 01:22:36,840
if I did not have access to that if I

2065
01:22:40,910 --> 01:22:38,520
couldn't like figure out exactly

2066
01:22:43,070 --> 01:22:40,920
immediately what I had seen I would I

2067
01:22:44,750 --> 01:22:43,080
mean a couple hundred years prior I

2068
01:22:47,330 --> 01:22:44,760
would be convinced that I was being like

2069
01:22:49,669 --> 01:22:47,340
visited by demons or something nearly

2070
01:22:52,910 --> 01:22:49,679
every culture around the world has its

2071
01:22:54,890 --> 01:22:52,920
own like slightly unique specific uh

2072
01:22:59,149 --> 01:22:54,900
Superstition based around sleep

2073
01:23:01,310 --> 01:22:59,159
paralysis old hags karashinari in Japan

2074
01:23:04,490 --> 01:23:01,320
I think that's how you say it like every

2075
01:23:07,070 --> 01:23:04,500
culture has got some kind of entity that

2076
01:23:10,130 --> 01:23:07,080
comes in kind of like explains the

2077
01:23:11,689 --> 01:23:10,140
sensations of a hypnopic or hypnagogic

2078
01:23:14,270 --> 01:23:11,699
uh hallucination along with the

2079
01:23:15,830 --> 01:23:14,280
paralysis and the kind of pushing on the

2080
01:23:19,490 --> 01:23:15,840
chest the Japanese called the choking

2081
01:23:21,890 --> 01:23:19,500
ghost you know uh the term Haggard comes

2082
01:23:23,689 --> 01:23:21,900
from being visited by the old hag which

2083
01:23:25,970 --> 01:23:23,699
was an old superstition about sleep

2084
01:23:28,490 --> 01:23:25,980
paralysis I mean it left you tired in

2085
01:23:31,430 --> 01:23:28,500
the morning so you were Haggard but

2086
01:23:33,410 --> 01:23:31,440
right but like think about that that's a

2087
01:23:35,330 --> 01:23:33,420
natural it's a natural thing that people

2088
01:23:37,430 --> 01:23:35,340
didn't explain and or couldn't explain

2089
01:23:39,110 --> 01:23:37,440
at the time and they've created a

2090
01:23:40,430 --> 01:23:39,120
folklore around it and it just became

2091
01:23:42,290 --> 01:23:40,440
kind of a

2092
01:23:44,750 --> 01:23:42,300
subconsciously known by everybody

2093
01:23:47,270 --> 01:23:44,760
culturally yeah well and it's and it's

2094
01:23:49,130 --> 01:23:47,280
it's uh an interpretive framework that

2095
01:23:51,290 --> 01:23:49,140
allows them to metabolize and integrate

2096
01:23:53,270 --> 01:23:51,300
the experience right it gives them a

2097
01:23:55,790 --> 01:23:53,280
language to talk about it it gives them

2098
01:23:58,070 --> 01:23:55,800
a framework to understand what happened

2099
01:24:00,110 --> 01:23:58,080
even if it's not pleasant right we don't

2100
01:24:01,850 --> 01:24:00,120
even have this [\h__\h] anymore right the

2101
01:24:04,250 --> 01:24:01,860
only places you find this kind of stuff

2102
01:24:06,470 --> 01:24:04,260
is like if you're sitting like if you're

2103
01:24:08,750 --> 01:24:06,480
like deep into the like weird Buddhist

2104
01:24:10,430 --> 01:24:08,760
[\h__\h] that I'm into like you're gonna

2105
01:24:12,290 --> 01:24:10,440
have language and interpretive

2106
01:24:14,689 --> 01:24:12,300
Frameworks for like when you experience

2107
01:24:17,330 --> 01:24:14,699
basically how psychedelic experiences in

2108
01:24:19,310 --> 01:24:17,340
meditation or like but like if I went

2109
01:24:21,770 --> 01:24:19,320
and talked to like the standard issue

2110
01:24:24,430 --> 01:24:21,780
doctor or therapist about this they'd be

2111
01:24:26,990 --> 01:24:24,440
totally pathologize it right like like

2112
01:24:27,709 --> 01:24:27,000
at least having these

2113
01:24:29,330 --> 01:24:27,719
um

2114
01:24:31,130 --> 01:24:29,340
even if it's something that we

2115
01:24:34,010 --> 01:24:31,140
understand from a scientific perspective

2116
01:24:36,590 --> 01:24:34,020
now like having these cultural

2117
01:24:38,990 --> 01:24:36,600
Frameworks to integrate these

2118
01:24:41,330 --> 01:24:39,000
experiences historically are deeply

2119
01:24:42,890 --> 01:24:41,340
powerful and again I think a major

2120
01:24:44,930 --> 01:24:42,900
reason is because it upends that sense

2121
01:24:47,330 --> 01:24:44,940
of isolation or freakishness that kind

2122
01:24:50,390 --> 01:24:47,340
of accompany you know these like these

2123
01:24:53,450 --> 01:24:52,310
okay do you guys are you guys familiar

2124
01:24:57,530 --> 01:24:53,460
at all with

2125
01:24:59,750 --> 01:24:57,540
um Mandela effects oh yeah this this

2126
01:25:02,030 --> 01:24:59,760
kind of meme that's uh oh yeah there's a

2127
01:25:03,229 --> 01:25:02,040
lot of news and stuff bizarre things

2128
01:25:04,729 --> 01:25:03,239
depending on take effect but this is

2129
01:25:07,010 --> 01:25:04,739
kind of like this is almost a new one

2130
01:25:09,830 --> 01:25:07,020
right this is almost a new kind of it's

2131
01:25:10,729 --> 01:25:09,840
a new meme it's coming out over like um

2132
01:25:12,530 --> 01:25:10,739
kind of

2133
01:25:15,590 --> 01:25:12,540
Collective and cultural memories of

2134
01:25:17,689 --> 01:25:15,600
thing like saying um Luke I am your

2135
01:25:19,189 --> 01:25:17,699
father Vader's line he wouldn't say that

2136
01:25:21,290 --> 01:25:19,199
in the line he says no I'm your father

2137
01:25:24,410 --> 01:25:21,300
because it's part of a sentence but if

2138
01:25:26,390 --> 01:25:24,420
you isolate that to kind of convey that

2139
01:25:28,070 --> 01:25:26,400
same scene with without the dialogue on

2140
01:25:30,890 --> 01:25:28,080
either end you say Luke

2141
01:25:34,370 --> 01:25:30,900
yeah that's how the scene is conveyed in

2142
01:25:37,310 --> 01:25:34,380
every other place except the movie so so

2143
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:37,320
now we have a Superstition that once

2144
01:25:41,689 --> 01:25:39,600
again uh kind of revolves around

2145
01:25:43,370 --> 01:25:41,699
alternate Dimensions or alternate places

2146
01:25:46,550 --> 01:25:43,380
almost

2147
01:25:48,649 --> 01:25:46,560
uh The Ether again once again because

2148
01:25:49,910 --> 01:25:48,659
we're switching between these things I

2149
01:25:50,930 --> 01:25:49,920
think that

2150
01:25:53,689 --> 01:25:50,940
um

2151
01:25:57,050 --> 01:25:53,699
you know pop science magazines and blogs

2152
01:25:58,790 --> 01:25:57,060
uh kind of play into that to we

2153
01:26:00,890 --> 01:25:58,800
we've talked about that a little bit too

2154
01:26:03,530 --> 01:26:00,900
where like you'll get these like

2155
01:26:05,629 --> 01:26:03,540
highly theoretical physical idea is

2156
01:26:07,610 --> 01:26:05,639
getting getting tossed around on blogs

2157
01:26:09,590 --> 01:26:07,620
saying like scientists baffled by

2158
01:26:11,870 --> 01:26:09,600
something that exceeds the the

2159
01:26:13,550 --> 01:26:11,880
brightness uh that we previously oh yeah

2160
01:26:15,410 --> 01:26:13,560
yeah

2161
01:26:16,850 --> 01:26:15,420
all these like kind of pop that sound

2162
01:26:18,050 --> 01:26:16,860
really interesting and they're kind of

2163
01:26:19,550 --> 01:26:18,060
sci-fi and they're weird and they're

2164
01:26:21,590 --> 01:26:19,560
really out there they're not applicable

2165
01:26:23,450 --> 01:26:21,600
but you're serving this to a population

2166
01:26:27,110 --> 01:26:23,460
that doesn't have

2167
01:26:28,990 --> 01:26:27,120
you know a basic science understanding a

2168
01:26:31,129 --> 01:26:29,000
science education do you even like

2169
01:26:34,010 --> 01:26:31,139
interpret this kind of stuff so I think

2170
01:26:36,530 --> 01:26:34,020
that stuff just kind of propagates to

2171
01:26:38,689 --> 01:26:36,540
you know what I mean

2172
01:26:40,370 --> 01:26:38,699
oh go ahead that just kind of feeds into

2173
01:26:43,189 --> 01:26:40,380
the idea and it gives all it gives it

2174
01:26:45,050 --> 01:26:43,199
more places for these um superstitions

2175
01:26:46,970 --> 01:26:45,060
to hide because like we always talked

2176
01:26:49,189 --> 01:26:46,980
about aliens Came From Mars then from

2177
01:26:51,050 --> 01:26:49,199
Venus then the dark side of the moon but

2178
01:26:52,390 --> 01:26:51,060
we started you know sending probes there

2179
01:26:55,070 --> 01:26:52,400
and Landing

2180
01:26:57,770 --> 01:26:55,080
uh Georgia damski said he saw the dark

2181
01:26:59,510 --> 01:26:57,780
the the back side of the moon before we

2182
01:27:01,970 --> 01:26:59,520
sent any Imaging back there and said

2183
01:27:04,910 --> 01:27:01,980
that there were cities but then you know

2184
01:27:06,649 --> 01:27:04,920
our kind of cultural understanding grew

2185
01:27:08,810 --> 01:27:06,659
so they have to hide further and further

2186
01:27:11,090 --> 01:27:08,820
and I think these pop science articles

2187
01:27:12,890 --> 01:27:11,100
and stuff kind of give people because

2188
01:27:14,870 --> 01:27:12,900
they talk about multiverses and things

2189
01:27:16,790 --> 01:27:14,880
like that highly highly hypothetical

2190
01:27:18,709 --> 01:27:16,800
like I said non-phalsifiable things

2191
01:27:21,050 --> 01:27:18,719
really just kind of

2192
01:27:22,910 --> 01:27:21,060
science but then people consume that and

2193
01:27:24,470 --> 01:27:22,920
it becomes part of the lore the lore is

2194
01:27:26,270 --> 01:27:24,480
always changing

2195
01:27:27,950 --> 01:27:26,280
but I mean and that's why we see

2196
01:27:29,870 --> 01:27:27,960
constant different features with UFOs

2197
01:27:32,149 --> 01:27:29,880
like I said now they're um the Space

2198
01:27:34,250 --> 01:27:32,159
Ghost version of UFOs that can haunt

2199
01:27:36,709 --> 01:27:34,260
people it's just a new feature they're

2200
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:36,719
not really abducting people anymore

2201
01:27:41,330 --> 01:27:39,120
Campbell says they are but don't worry

2202
01:27:44,330 --> 01:27:41,340
yeah Campbell's got some weird beliefs

2203
01:27:46,490 --> 01:27:44,340
about this stuff yeah yeah no hey it's

2204
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:46,500
coming directly from the UK Ministry of

2205
01:27:52,790 --> 01:27:49,760
defense or I mean uh not me

2206
01:27:55,010 --> 01:27:52,800
uh let me just uh just as a final little

2207
01:27:56,030 --> 01:27:55,020
note about disclosure because um we

2208
01:27:58,129 --> 01:27:56,040
haven't really touched on it too much

2209
01:28:00,169 --> 01:27:58,139
but uh blue like Blue Book led into the

2210
01:28:01,669 --> 01:28:00,179
Condon report which was uh the United

2211
01:28:03,890 --> 01:28:01,679
States Air Force finally was like okay

2212
01:28:04,910 --> 01:28:03,900
we need to stop like bringing in these

2213
01:28:07,129 --> 01:28:04,920
reports we're getting any information

2214
01:28:10,070 --> 01:28:07,139
let's get uh what panel of University

2215
01:28:12,890 --> 01:28:10,080
experts on that they you know right now

2216
01:28:15,169 --> 01:28:12,900
we have the UAP study group in NASA

2217
01:28:18,350 --> 01:28:15,179
they're doing essentially something

2218
01:28:21,229 --> 01:28:18,360
similar at least the preliminary stages

2219
01:28:23,629 --> 01:28:21,239
um so maybe uh I'd love to just bring

2220
01:28:25,669 --> 01:28:23,639
this up it's uh just a little segment

2221
01:28:27,410 --> 01:28:25,679
from my website but the University of

2222
01:28:29,810 --> 01:28:27,420
Colorado and U.S Air Force scientific

2223
01:28:31,550 --> 01:28:29,820
study of unidentified flying objects aka

2224
01:28:35,030 --> 01:28:31,560
the common report

2225
01:28:37,270 --> 01:28:35,040
so the entire chapter seven so this is

2226
01:28:39,770 --> 01:28:37,280
what okay my opinion if we're gonna get

2227
01:28:41,750 --> 01:28:39,780
disclosure this is sort of like they're

2228
01:28:43,250 --> 01:28:41,760
gonna maybe do a repeat of what they've

2229
01:28:45,470 --> 01:28:43,260
already done because it worked it sort

2230
01:28:47,510 --> 01:28:45,480
of made it go away and stuff um so let's

2231
01:28:49,910 --> 01:28:47,520
see a disclosure tonight let's look at

2232
01:28:52,189 --> 01:28:49,920
the Colorado uh Condon report chapter

2233
01:28:54,169 --> 01:28:52,199
seven atmospheric electricity and plasma

2234
01:28:56,930 --> 01:28:54,179
interpretations of UFOs

2235
01:29:00,110 --> 01:28:56,940
so I got a whole chapter here and then

2236
01:29:01,910 --> 01:29:00,120
they just go into the descriptions of

2237
01:29:03,890 --> 01:29:01,920
ball lightning like they conclude the

2238
01:29:06,950 --> 01:29:03,900
objects with these features

2239
01:29:08,629 --> 01:29:06,960
I think they're politics they uh even go

2240
01:29:09,950 --> 01:29:08,639
into how they think electric Fields

2241
01:29:11,390 --> 01:29:09,960
might be related and might be having

2242
01:29:13,790 --> 01:29:11,400
physiological effects some people that's

2243
01:29:17,030 --> 01:29:13,800
not verified even now but in even then

2244
01:29:18,709 --> 01:29:17,040
they were saying that uh yada yada uh

2245
01:29:21,229 --> 01:29:18,719
collisions with aircraft so you got this

2246
01:29:23,149 --> 01:29:21,239
so then we got the National Academy of

2247
01:29:25,790 --> 01:29:23,159
Sciences review of the University of

2248
01:29:27,290 --> 01:29:25,800
Colorado report on unidentified flying

2249
01:29:28,850 --> 01:29:27,300
objects so the National Academy of

2250
01:29:31,669 --> 01:29:28,860
Sciences did a review of the report to

2251
01:29:36,229 --> 01:29:31,679
give an independent interpretation of

2252
01:29:39,050 --> 01:29:36,239
what happened and their conclusions were

2253
01:29:41,090 --> 01:29:39,060
there are important areas of atmospheric

2254
01:29:43,790 --> 01:29:41,100
electricity in which present knowledge

2255
01:29:45,410 --> 01:29:43,800
is quite incomplete these topics came to

2256
01:29:47,870 --> 01:29:45,420
our attention in connection with the

2257
01:29:50,030 --> 01:29:47,880
interpretation of some UFO reports

2258
01:29:51,770 --> 01:29:50,040
research efforts are being carried out

2259
01:29:54,350 --> 01:29:51,780
in these areas by the default Department

2260
01:29:56,330 --> 01:29:54,360
of Defense and the National Aeronautics

2261
01:29:59,570 --> 01:29:56,340
and Space Administration

2262
01:30:01,129 --> 01:29:59,580
and that's how they concluded it so they

2263
01:30:02,750 --> 01:30:01,139
don't say like oh UFOs are real or

2264
01:30:04,430 --> 01:30:02,760
aren't real but the report says like

2265
01:30:06,229 --> 01:30:04,440
well we don't know but you know there

2266
01:30:08,390 --> 01:30:06,239
are these objects they have every

2267
01:30:10,550 --> 01:30:08,400
quality that people are attributing to

2268
01:30:11,750 --> 01:30:10,560
these objects and you know here's the

2269
01:30:14,270 --> 01:30:11,760
independent review by the national

2270
01:30:16,189 --> 01:30:14,280
National Academy of Sciences and they're

2271
01:30:17,930 --> 01:30:16,199
saying these are the important areas and

2272
01:30:20,810 --> 01:30:17,940
they are actually already being

2273
01:30:22,729 --> 01:30:20,820
investigated by the dod in NASA so I

2274
01:30:24,649 --> 01:30:22,739
mean is that disclosure I don't know

2275
01:30:26,510 --> 01:30:24,659
it's kind of disclosure the kind of

2276
01:30:27,229 --> 01:30:26,520
disclosure that we're probably headed

2277
01:30:28,910 --> 01:30:27,239
for

2278
01:30:31,490 --> 01:30:28,920
mm-hmm

2279
01:30:33,649 --> 01:30:31,500
there is no objective disclosure it's

2280
01:30:35,030 --> 01:30:33,659
all subjective to each person based on

2281
01:30:39,770 --> 01:30:35,040
whichever

2282
01:30:43,270 --> 01:30:39,780
flavor of UFOs they like the most yes I

2283
01:30:47,750 --> 01:30:43,280
don't know actually it's coming soon

2284
01:30:50,510 --> 01:30:47,760
it's coming tomorrow I've been told this

2285
01:30:53,629 --> 01:30:50,520
year big things up until tonight that's

2286
01:30:56,390 --> 01:30:53,639
what I heard that's just our show it was

2287
01:30:57,830 --> 01:30:56,400
just clickbait man yeah

2288
01:30:59,990 --> 01:30:57,840
um

2289
01:31:03,770 --> 01:31:00,000
I swear at the bottom of the hour yeah

2290
01:31:07,129 --> 01:31:03,780
I'm tired man I need my beauty sleep

2291
01:31:10,070 --> 01:31:07,139
yeah well uh well let's wrap it up I am

2292
01:31:16,250 --> 01:31:10,080
not gonna be here next week

2293
01:31:20,810 --> 01:31:18,950
gonna have to figure it out I am I'm

2294
01:31:22,070 --> 01:31:20,820
gonna slide into some DMS this way you

2295
01:31:24,950 --> 01:31:22,080
can see who I can rope into a

2296
01:31:26,629 --> 01:31:24,960
conversation maybe grab Jay or Vanessa

2297
01:31:28,610 --> 01:31:26,639
um Nick let's you and I coordinate I'd

2298
01:31:30,950 --> 01:31:28,620
love to do like some side we like dude

2299
01:31:33,790 --> 01:31:30,960
let's talk about uh JB Ryan and the Duke

2300
01:31:36,169 --> 01:31:33,800
parapsychology lab

2301
01:31:38,090 --> 01:31:36,179
I need to brush up on a lot of that

2302
01:31:40,430 --> 01:31:38,100
because it has been aside from that

2303
01:31:42,410 --> 01:31:40,440
little Excursion we did in episode four

2304
01:31:44,330 --> 01:31:42,420
or whatever the hell it was yeah it's

2305
01:31:45,830 --> 01:31:44,340
been years I gotta brush up I got a

2306
01:31:48,890 --> 01:31:45,840
couple of books uh Stacy horns

2307
01:31:50,930 --> 01:31:48,900
unbelievable I got so good

2308
01:31:52,610 --> 01:31:50,940
called parapsychology controversial

2309
01:31:55,250 --> 01:31:52,620
science I think which also goes sitting

2310
01:31:56,760 --> 01:31:55,260
in my Amazon cart supposed to be there

2311
01:31:59,629 --> 01:31:56,770
the one yes

2312
01:32:02,030 --> 01:31:59,639
[Music]

2313
01:32:05,330 --> 01:32:02,040
not worth digging into those that

2314
01:32:07,189 --> 01:32:05,340
fun times flawed experiments but you

2315
01:32:10,550 --> 01:32:07,199
know cool kooky stories and stuff like

2316
01:32:13,129 --> 01:32:10,560
that and like Academia taking

2317
01:32:14,930 --> 01:32:13,139
weird stuff seriously for a bit I mean

2318
01:32:16,430 --> 01:32:14,940
you could there was a brief period from

2319
01:32:19,310 --> 01:32:16,440
I think two different schools where you

2320
01:32:19,970 --> 01:32:19,320
could get degrees in parapsychology I

2321
01:32:27,649 --> 01:32:19,980
think

2322
01:32:29,930 --> 01:32:27,659
yes incredible so cool

2323
01:32:31,310 --> 01:32:29,940
I hope they can do something with it

2324
01:32:32,110 --> 01:32:31,320
you know

2325
01:32:34,129 --> 01:32:32,120
um

2326
01:32:36,470 --> 01:32:34,139
but I mean like what do you do with any

2327
01:32:39,470 --> 01:32:36,480
degree I wouldn't know don't ask me on

2328
01:32:44,750 --> 01:32:43,370
but anyway yeah that man yeah I have

2329
01:32:48,169 --> 01:32:44,760
just been spitting about you up close

2330
01:32:50,030 --> 01:32:48,179
for too long and I don't know and Duncan

2331
01:32:52,729 --> 01:32:50,040
dude I would love to bring him on I'm I

2332
01:32:55,729 --> 01:32:52,739
actually I I like EXO quite a bit

2333
01:32:59,770 --> 01:32:55,739
uh reading some of the comments here

2334
01:33:04,129 --> 01:33:01,970
wrong comment

2335
01:33:06,530 --> 01:33:04,139
um would love to chat with him I think

2336
01:33:08,629 --> 01:33:06,540
think highly of them appreciate his um a

2337
01:33:09,490 --> 01:33:08,639
lot of a lot of what he says

2338
01:33:12,770 --> 01:33:09,500
um

2339
01:33:14,870 --> 01:33:12,780
I'm not sure he's an ins guest candidate

2340
01:33:17,930 --> 01:33:14,880
uh thanks to these degenerates that I

2341
01:33:20,390 --> 01:33:17,940
hang out with uh

2342
01:33:22,250 --> 01:33:20,400
not you Nick I'm talking about Lewis

2343
01:33:24,229 --> 01:33:22,260
currently suspended from Twitter for

2344
01:33:26,629 --> 01:33:24,239
like the fifth time

2345
01:33:32,149 --> 01:33:26,639
um let's go for a good cause yeah you

2346
01:33:34,790 --> 01:33:33,290
incredible

2347
01:33:38,270 --> 01:33:34,800
all right

2348
01:33:39,649 --> 01:33:38,280
currently working on anything I'm

2349
01:33:42,470 --> 01:33:39,659
reading that book that just came out

2350
01:33:44,870 --> 01:33:42,480
recently that's uh that's 700 page one

2351
01:33:46,370 --> 01:33:44,880
yeah the reliability of UFO witness

2352
01:33:48,950 --> 01:33:46,380
testimony I think is what it's called

2353
01:33:50,510 --> 01:33:48,960
it's got that uh yes it's a collection

2354
01:33:53,510 --> 01:33:50,520
of essays by a bunch of people it

2355
01:33:56,090 --> 01:33:53,520
dropped it's free to download the whole

2356
01:33:57,830 --> 01:33:56,100
thing it's really cool uh so far I mean

2357
01:34:05,930 --> 01:33:57,840
I have some comments on the first little

2358
01:34:09,169 --> 01:34:06,709
um

2359
01:34:12,530 --> 01:34:09,179
all right everybody well that's another

2360
01:34:14,030 --> 01:34:12,540
week on UFO land I hope you had a good

2361
01:34:15,350 --> 01:34:14,040
time watching

2362
01:34:17,149 --> 01:34:15,360
all right we'll see you all next

2363
01:34:27,090 --> 01:34:17,159
Wednesday

2364
01:34:35,460 --> 01:34:33,129
[Music]

2365
01:35:03,010 --> 01:34:35,470
thank you

2366
01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:03,020
[Music]

2367
01:35:09,070 --> 01:35:05,610
[Applause]

2368
01:35:11,270 --> 01:35:09,080
[Music]

2369
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:11,280
thank you